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Better known source: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/e

by Youden 3y ago

Better known source: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-...

082349872349872 3y ago
...and on the other side, even ТАСС has been reporting on it: https://tass.com/russia/1637443 https://tass.com/russia/1637443 Edit: note that the TASS coverage is far more up-to-date in russian than english. (protip: translate.yandex.com) Новость дополняется. https://tass.ru/delo-v-otnoshenii-prigozhina-ob-organizacii-vooruzhennogo-myatezha https://tass.ru/delo-v-otnoshenii-prigozhina-ob-organizacii-...
baybal2 3y ago
An unfortunate Russian passport holder, my parents were one of richest people in Russian Far East in the early nineties. Hackernewsers knows well I am extremely anti-Russian. The West massively misunderstands Russia, and how it works on the inside. If you watch CSIS, RAND, Aspen institute, you will see 10 talking heads each talking his own completely different story, and none of them tells more than a Russian highschooler can. Seeing Westerners instinctively reaching for "the best known source" tells why something like this came as a surprise in the first place, while this exact scenario been a watercooler talk for most Russians, both in Ukraine, and Russia itself. Why Western experts driving the conversation on Russia, China, etc are completely blind to things known to every highschooler? The reason is they are all having near zero personal experience outside politics, but Russia has no politics as such. None of them had that visceral back alley survival experience, which shape you for life.
- mcphage 3y ago
  > Seeing Westerners instinctively reaching for "the best known source" tells why something like this came as a surprise in the first place, while this exact scenario been a watercooler talk for most Russians, both in Ukraine, and Russia itself. > Why Western experts driving the conversation on Russia, China, etc are completely blind to things known to every highschooler? I’m not sure I follow you here. You’re saying that Westerners don’t understand things even known to high schoolers in Russia. I believe you. But then you say it’s because we try and find the best source for our information, and that also seems true. But it also seems like you’re saying that that’s the wrong course of action? It reads like you’re telling us that our sources aren’t good enough, but also complaining that we’re trying to find good sources. At any rate, I don’t happen to know any Russian high schoolers, so I have no way of asking them directly what it is that they talk about at the watercooler. I’d ask you, but that would just be me instinctively reaching for another “best known source”.
  - wrp 3y ago
    He is complaining that the West does a poor job of elevating well-informed commenters to prominence. Having close association to the Soviet/Russia watching community since the 1980s, I agree. The problem is that the kind of people who get the on-the-ground experience you need are not the type who play politics well and rise in organizations.
    - scarab92 3y ago
      It's also because journalists are experts in nothing but journalism. Instead of finding domain experts and giving them communications training and a platform to reach an audience, we instead find people with nothing useful to share, and give them journalism degrees. Journalism should be an activity that our most knowledgeable people do, not our least.
      - mcphage 3y ago
        > finding domain experts and giving them communications training and a platform to reach an audience Good journalism is hard. Being a domain expert in some area doesn’t naturally translate into a talent or passion for journalism or public outreach. Overall, I do agree with you. I just think it’s easier said than done. I’d say the legacy blue checks were often an example of what you’re describing—but those are now meaningless for evaluating if someone is a domain expert.
- jareds 3y ago
  "the best known source" is specific to each individual. I've never scene the referenced site before the post today so am unlikely to take what it says at face value with out more research. As someone who follows the news on the war by reading understandingwar.org I'm not surprised this has happened.
- deleted 3y ago
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- credit_guy 3y ago
  Maybe you missed this blog post of Timothy Snyder [1] from October last year: Is it a stretch to suppose that Prigozhin is sparing whatever valuable men and material he has left? He has been openly recruiting Russian prisoners to fight for Wagner in Ukraine; I would venture the supposition that he is sending them to die and keeping back the men and equipment who might have a future in some other endeavor. [...] In the overall logic that I am describing, rivals would seek to conserve whatever fighting forces they have, either to protect their own personal interests during an unpredictable time, or to make a play for Moscow. [1] https://snyder.substack.com/p/how-does-the-russo-ukrainian-war https://snyder.substack.com/p/how-does-the-russo-ukrainian-w...
- hindsightbias 3y ago
  > while this exact scenario And of course, no citation ever given. Every Russian is woke and we’re just ignorant. Every western expert everywhere has been saying forever that Putin wasn’t going anywhere until someone in the defense arena had enough to take on the security state. And it won’t matter how it turns out, as the new Vlad will be the same as the old Vlad. We know all we need to know abput Russia. A people without agency looking for a new daddy.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Seeing Westerners instinctively reaching for "the best known source" tells why something like this came as a surprise in the first place Except for the specific timing, it didn’t, really. The spiralling conflict between Prigozhin and the military establishment has been heavily covered in Western media, that a catastrophic breach was a likely eventuality has been talked about by Western experts for a while, and was seen as particularly likely with the recent move to consolidate control of the PMCs under MoD command, which was viewed as directed very much at Prigozhin specifically.

by Youden 3y ago

Better known source: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-...

082349872349872 3y ago

...and on the other side, even ТАСС has been reporting on it: https://tass.com/russia/1637443 https://tass.com/russia/1637443 Edit: note that the TASS coverage is far more up-to-date in russian than english. (protip: translate.yandex.com) Новость дополняется. https://tass.ru/delo-v-otnoshenii-prigozhina-ob-organizacii-vooruzhennogo-myatezha https://tass.ru/delo-v-otnoshenii-prigozhina-ob-organizacii-...

baybal2 3y ago

An unfortunate Russian passport holder, my parents were one of richest people in Russian Far East in the early nineties. Hackernewsers knows well I am extremely anti-Russian. The West massively misunderstands Russia, and how it works on the inside. If you watch CSIS, RAND, Aspen institute, you will see 10 talking heads each talking his own completely different story, and none of them tells more than a Russian highschooler can. Seeing Westerners instinctively reaching for "the best known source" tells why something like this came as a surprise in the first place, while this exact scenario been a watercooler talk for most Russians, both in Ukraine, and Russia itself. Why Western experts driving the conversation on Russia, China, etc are completely blind to things known to every highschooler? The reason is they are all having near zero personal experience outside politics, but Russia has no politics as such. None of them had that visceral back alley survival experience, which shape you for life.

mcphage 3y ago
> Seeing Westerners instinctively reaching for "the best known source" tells why something like this came as a surprise in the first place, while this exact scenario been a watercooler talk for most Russians, both in Ukraine, and Russia itself. > Why Western experts driving the conversation on Russia, China, etc are completely blind to things known to every highschooler? I’m not sure I follow you here. You’re saying that Westerners don’t understand things even known to high schoolers in Russia. I believe you. But then you say it’s because we try and find the best source for our information, and that also seems true. But it also seems like you’re saying that that’s the wrong course of action? It reads like you’re telling us that our sources aren’t good enough, but also complaining that we’re trying to find good sources. At any rate, I don’t happen to know any Russian high schoolers, so I have no way of asking them directly what it is that they talk about at the watercooler. I’d ask you, but that would just be me instinctively reaching for another “best known source”.
- wrp 3y ago
  He is complaining that the West does a poor job of elevating well-informed commenters to prominence. Having close association to the Soviet/Russia watching community since the 1980s, I agree. The problem is that the kind of people who get the on-the-ground experience you need are not the type who play politics well and rise in organizations.
  - scarab92 3y ago
    It's also because journalists are experts in nothing but journalism. Instead of finding domain experts and giving them communications training and a platform to reach an audience, we instead find people with nothing useful to share, and give them journalism degrees. Journalism should be an activity that our most knowledgeable people do, not our least.
    - mcphage 3y ago
      > finding domain experts and giving them communications training and a platform to reach an audience Good journalism is hard. Being a domain expert in some area doesn’t naturally translate into a talent or passion for journalism or public outreach. Overall, I do agree with you. I just think it’s easier said than done. I’d say the legacy blue checks were often an example of what you’re describing—but those are now meaningless for evaluating if someone is a domain expert.
jareds 3y ago
"the best known source" is specific to each individual. I've never scene the referenced site before the post today so am unlikely to take what it says at face value with out more research. As someone who follows the news on the war by reading understandingwar.org I'm not surprised this has happened.
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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credit_guy 3y ago
Maybe you missed this blog post of Timothy Snyder [1] from October last year: Is it a stretch to suppose that Prigozhin is sparing whatever valuable men and material he has left? He has been openly recruiting Russian prisoners to fight for Wagner in Ukraine; I would venture the supposition that he is sending them to die and keeping back the men and equipment who might have a future in some other endeavor. [...] In the overall logic that I am describing, rivals would seek to conserve whatever fighting forces they have, either to protect their own personal interests during an unpredictable time, or to make a play for Moscow. [1] https://snyder.substack.com/p/how-does-the-russo-ukrainian-war https://snyder.substack.com/p/how-does-the-russo-ukrainian-w...
hindsightbias 3y ago
> while this exact scenario And of course, no citation ever given. Every Russian is woke and we’re just ignorant. Every western expert everywhere has been saying forever that Putin wasn’t going anywhere until someone in the defense arena had enough to take on the security state. And it won’t matter how it turns out, as the new Vlad will be the same as the old Vlad. We know all we need to know abput Russia. A people without agency looking for a new daddy.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Seeing Westerners instinctively reaching for "the best known source" tells why something like this came as a surprise in the first place Except for the specific timing, it didn’t, really. The spiralling conflict between Prigozhin and the military establishment has been heavily covered in Western media, that a catastrophic breach was a likely eventuality has been talked about by Western experts for a while, and was seen as particularly likely with the recent move to consolidate control of the PMCs under MoD command, which was viewed as directed very much at Prigozhin specifically.