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James Cameron slams OceanGate safety, regrets not speaking up more
- kayodelycaon 3y agoIf you haven’t seen Deepsea Challenge, the movie about James Cameron building and taking a sub into the Challenger Deep, I highly recommend it.
- luxuryballs 3y ago“sorry I should have said something” ha sounds a little pretentious
- dang 3y agoPlease don't do this here.
- luxuryballs 3y ago[flagged]
- paulpauper 3y agoI see so many similarities between oceangate and FTX. same sort of laid-back culture (which is fine when it's your own money or lives at stake, not others), disregard for safety and security measures and cutting corners (game controller to steer sub), hubris from CEO, and the suddenness it all imploded (literally and figuratively) etc.
- x86x87 3y agoWhen people literally die I think the standard should be a little bit higher
- detourdog 3y agoThe problem is that the people signed up as crew for a dangerous job. Anybody with a working sense of self preservation wouldn't have needed a regulation.
- Buttons840 3y ago> game controller to steer sub People keep picking on this point, but if you have a backup controller, and a safety system that is independent of the controller (I've heard the sub had a way to resurface without the controller), then it's fine. (You also need to make sure you won't do a 360-backflip-barrel-roll if the controller firmware has a bug.) Bought your interior lights from Harbor Freight? As long as there are multiple independent lights, as well as a safety system to resurface that doesn't require lighting, then it's fine. Of all the cut corners, the game controller isn't what killed them. Unfortunately, they cut corners on the hull too, and there's no backup for that.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoThe controller isn't the problem. It's the electronics it's communicating with. I'd bet dollars to donuts it was loaded with hobbyist grade SBCs and an over reliance on whatever the laptop was being used for.
- Buttons840 3y agoYeah, clearly the attitude that lead to the controller went too far, even if the controller itself wasn't a problem.
- readyplayernull 3y agoThe difference is the insurance.
- foota 3y agoI don't think this necessarily entirely applies here, since the CEO was in the submarine that failed. Did they put others at risk? Yes. But it's not like they weren't also at risk, not that that makes it ok.
- c7DJTLrn 3y agoSo many disasters are caused by hubris. Titanic and Chernobyl are well known examples, but you can find many more horrifying stories on a YouTube channel called Fascinating Horror. https://www.youtube.com/@FascinatingHorror https://www.youtube.com/@FascinatingHorror
- x86x87 3y ago[flagged]
- corinroyal 3y agoRight, who wants to hear the opinion of a leader in the field? Virtue signaling is whatever I want it to mean.
- x86x87 3y agoIt's not about hearing from thr guy. It's about asking: what does this add?
- corinroyal 3y agoDid you even watch the interviews? Cameron pointed out that the safety record for these kind of craft is perfect until today, that these subs are a known quanity, that he and others warned OceanGate against using carbon fiber because it's a laminate that delaminates and fails catastrophically with no warning, and that Cameron knew of the implosion the day it happened. All quite newsworthy.
- parl_match 3y ago> virtue signaling The virtue of testing, certification, and solid design goes well beyond "signalling", when an expert in the field raises their concern. "virtue signaling" is a mean-nothing phrase
- shawn-butler 3y agoVirtue signaling is hardly a “mean-nothing” phrase. But most people confuse virtue signaling (attempting to fit in by saying the right things) with moral grandstanding (garnering attention)[0]. Which behavior Cameron is engaging here is for the reader to judge. [0]: https://doi.org/10.1111/papa.12075 https://doi.org/10.1111/papa.12075
- jrflowers 3y ago
- csours 3y agoMy opinion that no one needs: We don't need more regulations on extreme deep sea submersibles. There are on average approximately 0 deaths per year, and fewer than 1000 users per year. This number is extremely unlikely to go up. On average, Classic Cars kill AT LEAST an order of magnitude more people than extreme deep sea submersibles per year. People want to drive their old cars because they look cool. People want to do all kinds of dumb stuff. When proposing regulations, ask at least these three questions: Is it a big problem? Will it become a big problem? Is it truly voluntary? You can still argue about these questions and their answers, but at least it's not a binary or knee jerk response.
- andrewfromx 3y agonot to mention unnecessary car trips even in just normal cars! Do I really need to go from point A to point B? I could just stay point A and that's safer.
- kayodelycaon 3y agoThere are more people doing deep dives that you probably suspect. Safety regulations involving things like ships, subs, and airplanes are quite literally written in blood. Is it too onerous to require a ship have navigation lights and life jackets? Subs should have at least some basic safety minimums.
- rvba 3y agoDont they dive in a part of sea that is international, so no rules apply?
- dragontamer 3y agoThe companies are incorporated in some country however. And ships that go out to sea must be flagged under some country, and those ships have to follow the rules/regulations of the country they're under.
- falcolas 3y ago
- pacifika 3y agoFlagged for changing the title.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dang 3y agoIt's the HTML doc title, which is legit to use for an HN submission.
- mcpackieh 3y agoI hope he doesn't beat himself up too much. There are probably hundreds of people at least who had enough deep sea experience to have spoken out against OceanGate before this happened, it wasn't James Cameron's sole responsibility. Hopefully somebody close to him can talk to him about survivor guilt. He shouldn't blame himself for this.
- rvba 3y agoIs he beating himself or getting free marketing for his movies? Another generation can watch Titanic now
- BoxFour 3y agoseems doubtful that James Cameron would care much about promoting a 30 year old movie that was widely rumored as a vehicle for him to get studio funding for his deep sea explorations (ie not clear he has much attachment to it). Even strictly monetarily, spending 5 minutes on avatar 3 would probably be a much better return in terms of time spent : money earned.
- mcpackieh 3y agoI saw an interview he gave for a news channel where he said he was having difficulty processing the death of his friend, who was on the submarine. So my read is that he's genuinely distraught. Remember that he's just as human as the rest of us, not a soulless corporate entity. He does have real feelings about things.
- favorited 3y agoHe was friends with one of the men who died, and is a recognized expert in both deep sea submersibles and diving to the Titanic specifically. He might not need to blame himself, but it's natural that he'd wonder "should I have raised more awareness of the danger?"
- mcpackieh 3y agoNatural yes, but not necessarily healthy. These kind of "what if" questions can consume people.
- xnx 3y agoManned sea exploration seems even more unnecessary than manned space exploration. Remotely (or autonomously) operated vehicles can do it better, safer, faster, and cheaper.
- ab_testing 3y agoReading this article leaves me confused about what Oceangate was even trying to achieve. As I read, James Cameroon had been to the Titanic wreck 33 times. So that means, others have gone there as well. He has even been to the Marina trench. It is even mentioned that deep submergence diving is a mature art. As per CNN, even back in 2001, people went to the Titanic to get married. And they were able to go there for around $31K. So why was Oceangate trying to rebuild something that seemed like a solved problem. Why not just stand on the shoulders of existing giants and leverage existing sub designs that have been there. http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/16/wedding.titanic/ http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/16/wedding.titanic/
- cbsks 3y agoWhere did you get the $31k figure? The CNN article mentions £400,000 ($560,000). If you are correct about the $31k price, then it is definitely weird that Oceangate is so much more expensive. I assumed that Oceangate was attempting to make deep sea submarines more affordable.
- falcolas 3y ago> I assumed that Oceangate was attempting to make deep sea submarines more affordable. Why? Especially when their target audience is/was billionaires with plenty of money to spend on novel experiences. I imagine their pricing takes this into account.
- hgsgm 3y agoBecause they want to make more profit.
- christoph 3y agoThis BBC article from 2001 states a price of $36k, but says the couple actually won their trip down - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1461368.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1461368.stm I agree that the pricing disparity is very odd, but then there is much that is very odd about this story. Maybe it's just another tragic story of human hubris. For instance, Hamish Harding seemed like a very accomplished aviator and adventurer, having lead the world record "One More Orbit" mission - the fastest circumnavigation of the globe via both poles, over 46hrs, in a Gulfstream G650ER. He holds the world record for the longest duration at full ocean depth by a crewed vessel - 4hrs+/2.88 miles along the sea floor of Challenger Deep, in Deep-Submergence Vehicle (DSV) Limiting Factor - a proper sub which is now technically owned by Gabe Newell I believe. Look at pictures of it - it's a very different beast to the Titan. He's been up in Blue Origin. Amongst many, many other things. He's not a stranger around highly experienced, competent people in very well engineered vehicles. I just don't understand how a man with that level of experience and knowledge didn't take one look at that sub and crew and instantly nope out. Does the desire for adventure just switch off the risk mitigation part of the brain? When you try and find solid information about how many deep sea missions were actually done in that sub, you're left in a mess of conflicting numbers and stories. Given the viewport glass was only rated to 1300m, and the hull was supposedly "rebuilt" due to cyclic fatigue in 2021[1], I simply can't believe any numbers like 13+ deep sea missions to the Titanic after that rebuild without catastrophe striking much sooner. How do you even rebuild a carbon fibre hull that was built from: "He said he had gotten the carbon fiber used to make the Titan at a big discount from Boeing because it was past its shelf-life for use in airplanes."[2] [1] - https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/20/a-whistleblower-raised-safety-concerns-about-oceangates-submersible-in-2018-then-he-was-fired/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/20/a-whistleblower-raised-saf... [2] - https://www.travelweekly.com/North-America-Travel/Mission-Titanic-part-2 https://www.travelweekly.com/North-America-Travel/Mission-Ti...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- greatpostman 3y agoThese deaths seem fine to me. People with a lot of money doing dumb things. That’s okay
- darkteflon 3y agoGeez, this James Cameron cat is really milking his 5 minutes.