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How PayPal and Apple’s Fraud Policies Punish the Honest User

135 points by MattRyanLG 15y ago

In mid-November last year, I woke up to the sound of my inbox suddenly being flooded with new messages. I have things set to alert me whenever PayPal, Wells Fargo, or iTunes emails me because I know that means that money is either being given to me or taken away. To my surprise, what I discovered that morning was incredibly concerning, and would result in what could be the most frustrating customer experience of my life.

jobu 15y ago
Here's a tip: Don't use PayPal unless you absolutely have to. PayPal has taken to treating its customers as badly as many large banks. Many credit card companies are very proactive about fraudulent purchases online, and I even had Discover call me when they noticed a series of small purchases on iTunes. It turned out it wasn't exactly fraud (my 5yo on a home computer I hadn't signed out), but I was able to cut it off and I'm sure they saved me a bundle of money.
- gav 15y ago
  I've had experiences dealing with fraud from both PayPal and Bank of America recently. BoA were easy to get on the phone and refunded my money instantly. PayPal won't let you speak to a human, and after a week or so of going back and forth determined that it was acceptable for me to be overcharged for an item as long as I got the correct item in the mail. Using a real credit card (not debit) gets you a great deal of protection and is a better option than ever using PayPal.
  - dangrossman 15y ago
    > PayPal won't let you speak to a human Really? I've spoken to humans at PayPal many times. When I call, I don't even have to navigate a phone tree or wait on hold, someone just answers. The people I talked to were helpful and knowledgeable about their service and handling problems (which is what I called about, some weird customer that sent a bunch of <10-cent payments to my account then disputed them, and more recently with a question about the new IRS 1099-K form). It wasn't hard to find the number to call either. You log in, click on Contact Us, then Call Us. Two clicks and you have a phone number.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - jmonegro 15y ago
      Same here. I've had problems with PayPal twice, and both times their support has been very courteous, quick, and helpful.
- dkl 15y ago
  Would it be fair to say that if both sides of the transaction are trusted then Paypal is OK? I would say that most of the time I use Paypal this is the case.
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    No, not even close. PayPal makes every transaction involve three parties, and PayPal imposes themselves even when unwanted by either buyer or seller. Notably, look up the various cases where people used PayPal for a charity or fundraiser, and PayPal cut off payments and stole the funds because they didn't quite grasp the concept of money changing hands without a product getting shipped.
theHeraldTV 15y ago
I've been using PayPal for nearly ten years now and never had any issues with the service. Now currently my bank account is overdrawn, and if I don't get it out of the red soon I won't be able to use PayPal with my eBay account, etc. That's not PayPay's fault -- it's my own for not managing my money better. Apple Inc. prides itself on its customer service. When I went in for a group interview to work at the local Apple Store that was the most important concept they drilled into our heads. That said, it's one thing for a company to talk the talk; it's quite another to walk the walk.
- MattRyanLG 15y ago
  Having worked for Apple customer service myself, I couldn't agree more. Apple does a lot to help the customers, but why iTunes doesn't have phone support is beyond me.
  - Caballera 15y ago
    Apple has a lot of contact information that's easily available. http://www.apple.com/contact/ http://www.apple.com/contact/ sounds like someone did a charageback if they didn't do it one of the financial institutions did one.
dangrossman 15y ago
So: 1) Someone steals his PayPal account and uses it to buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes 2) He reports the fraud to PayPal, which refunds all of these payments to him 3) He reports to Wells Fargo that PayPal has engaged in fraud by taking these payments to fund his PayPal account, which is a false claim -- the transfer to PayPal was authorized as a funding source and PayPal was already handling the refunds 4) Three months later, PayPal gets hit with a bunch of disputes from Wells Fargo to take back money that's already been returned, double dipping and creating major hassles for them. Wells Fargo is, essentially, stealing from PayPal on the basis of this person's old false claim. PayPal flags the account. So PayPal did everything right: they were available for immediate contact, were "courteous and helpful", promptly reversed the fraudulent payments to iTunes, and his account was left in good standing while he was made financially whole. What more could they have done?
- MattRyanLG 15y ago
  PayPal informed me that I have to file a claim through my bank for the amount that had rolled over to the bank. PayPal ONLY refunded me the amount that PayPal didn't send to my bank. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in the article (there were two paragraphs about it), but those are the facts. PayPal was fairly good throughout the ordeal. It's the internal policies that conflict and caused further issues down the chain. I can only do what the CSR advises.
- kstenerud 15y ago
  "He reports to Wells Fargo that PayPal has engaged in fraud by taking these payments to fund his PayPal account, which is a false claim" No, he didn't. In his own words: "I told the representative there that I had reported the claim through PayPal, but wanted it noted that the charges made on my account that day were fraudulent in nature. The representative appeared to understand, and helped me make record of the incident." The problem isn't with PayPal or his bank, as they'd eventually sort out the ping-pong notifications. The real problem is with Apple's draconian policy of taking all of a customer's purchases and data away from him if fraud reports occur on three or more occasions, regardless of why they occur (such as in this case with ping-ponging notifications between Wells Fargo and PayPal). It's yet another reason to not trust your life to the cloud, and always procure a separate, pirated copy of your purchased software so that nobody can take it away from you.
spindritf 15y ago
Why is PayPal even in the title? They seem to have handled the case fine. Yeah, the additional freezes probably weren't necessary but it was Apple who went completely crazy. A user was hacked so they stop allowing him to update their software?! So that it can more easily happen again? And they will revoke his account (and license?) that allows him to use the software he bought?! This is like a horror story written by Richard Stallman. EDIT: On second thought, why do you even need an account to update the software? When I'm updating my Ubuntu, it's the software that's signed so that I can trust the repository. The user is not signed so that the repository can trust them, you can stay completely anonymous. Hell, even Microsoft never required me to jump through any sort of hoops to get updates. I once had to verify my key, that's it. Does Android require a Google account to use the market and get updates? Even if, you still can get an anonymous one. Why would anyone need my name to update their own software? It happens to run on my computer but that doesn't change anything.
- shinratdr 15y ago
  > And they will revoke his account (and license?) that allows him to use the software he bought?! This is like a horror story written by Richard Stallman. Hardly. Valve has been doing this with Steam for years. Microsoft does it with Xbox Live. It's the main caveat of a managed environment, sometimes the manager makes the wrong decisions. This might be bad or distasteful, but it's not novel or unique. It's par for the course when it comes to software distributed through a central DRM system. > Does Android require a Google account to use the market and get updates? Even if, you still can get an anonymous one. You can do that with iOS too. Likewise, If Google decides to revoke your access to your Gmail account that all your Android purchases are associated with because you violated Gmail policy perhaps, you would be in the same boat. Once again, not unique to Apple. Par for the DRM course.
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    I don't think you've actually disagreed with the original point in any way. :) As you point out, Steam and Xbox Live have exactly the same disturbing retroactive revocation property that Apple does; that doesn't make it any less of a horror story, just more disturbing that people put up with it. (I suspect people mostly just don't think about it, because it probably won't come up for them.)
soult 15y ago
What I am most curious about, and what has never been mentioned in the article or in the comments here, is, how the account was hacked. If the author not only has been hacked himself, but also knows other people who have been hacked, it should be possible to find the common denominator between them.
- MattRyanLG 15y ago
  That would be interesting to find out. It's hard to find a common ground between them, since my Sister-in-law has an incredibly different set of usage habits than I do. Further to that, she doesn't have an iPad/iPhone.
droithomme 15y ago
Amazing. I had no idea Apple could just arbitrarily (or even with great reasons) decide to shut down your Apple ID, killing your software and disable a lifetime of DRM protected music, ebook and application purchases. Reminds me of how you now must show a passport to leave the US and being behind on your child support is cause to prevent US citizens from leaving the country, just as if they lived in East Germany. Starts out, oh sure, we need this system to check to make sure you're not some kind of criminal. Then it is used for arbitrary control and enforcement of the whims of a cold centralized bureaucracy. Cough cough Stallman was right cough cough.
- cageface 15y ago
  Still worse, if you're an indie iOS developer they can yank your entire living out from under you without explanation. This happened to me this year, I suspect because I made some app store purchases while traveling abroad. They disabled my ID and refused to even tell me why and only reinstated it after a long and arduous exchange with support. I really enjoy developing for iOS but this was a sobering experience.
  - lurker17 15y ago
    There are no "indie" iOS developers, because iOS developers are not independent. There are only "iOS contract developers", paid on a royalty basis, but retained at-will by Apple.
  - brown9-2 15y ago
    Is it common to use the same Apple ID for personal purchases and your business app development?
    - aptwebapps 15y ago
      It sure seems like a bad idea now, doesn't it?
    - gte910h 15y ago
      I know a lot of devs. For the ones who do it full time, almost none of them do this.
patio11 15y ago
Curious that Paypal is getting the hate in the comments here: when did they threaten to permaban him from his software? Anyhow, constructively, you want to escalate to paper on both your bank and Apple (maybe Paypal as well, your call). Start getting an evidence trail together with certified mail, return receipt requested. Apple will kvetch a bit but they (and virtually every other large company) understand the difference between that and a phone call, which you should stop doing immediately, because the contents of them are known to be totally opaque to judges. You probably won't have to sue anyone, but the demonstrable capability of suing will cause them to escalate this issue internally very, very rapidly.
- jellicle 15y ago
  > You probably won't have to sue anyone, but the demonstrable capability of suing will cause them to escalate this issue internally very, very rapidly. Not even slightly true. They don't care. The cost of the occasional lawsuit is baked into the system cost already.
  - spindritf 15y ago
    > The cost of the occasional lawsuit is baked into the system cost already. The cost of an "Apple can disable your computer" (true, or not) headline may be substantial and more convincing.
  - patio11 15y ago
    So my background in this is in consumer debt issues, largely dealing with banks, CC companies, and debt collection agencies. In my pre-HN days, I spent a lot of time hanging out on a message board for folks who had issues with that, after having a credit report that got totally trashed because of a poorly chosen hash function causing my identity to collide with someone else's. Because I have really screwy hobbies I would write letters for folks to send to their banks. Add the two dozen letters I had to send for myself and I have personal knowledge that this definitively resolved the issue in 40+ cases, in many cases jumping over "our policy is to never...", "you can't do that", and collections at fairly advanced stages. It is entirely possible that Apple is a tougher nut to crack than BoA or Capital One, but that is not the way that I would bet. Edit: By the way, this is a catchphrase for me: bureaucracies are stage machines which take paper as input and return outcomes you want. Hackers should be comfortable with paper. Consider it an opportunity to demonstrate your ability to hack non-technical systems.
TomGullen 15y ago
The Paypal dispute policy is broken in my opinion. Admittedly we've only had a few disputes (in the region of ~10) but without failure the disputers ALWAYS gets their money back. The worst case we had was when one customer made a payment to us, and we got an email saying the payment was on hold whilst Paypal authorises and investigates this payment. A day or two later we got an email from Paypal saying their investigation is complete, and we can ship the item. We sent our software license off to the buyer and within a couple of hours they disputed it and won all their money back the next day. Paypal each time make us feel like there's nothing we can do, there's no dialogue, there's no acknowledgements, it's extremely frustrating sometimes.
- dangrossman 15y ago
  I've had the opposite experience. I also sell intangibles like software, and win virtually all disputes. The PayPal Buyer Protection Policy does not cover services and virtual goods. Simply escalating to a claim and writing "NON-TANGIBLE, SERVICES" in the tracking number box gets it closed in my favor 90% of the time when someone is lying to get the service or software for free. http://i.imgur.com/GEY70.png http://i.imgur.com/GEY70.png http://i.imgur.com/IQlA9.png http://i.imgur.com/IQlA9.png http://i.imgur.com/vHAsP.png http://i.imgur.com/vHAsP.png ...etc. More transparency and human interaction would be nice, but I don't think PayPal could do much better from a policy standpoint. They provide a platform to self-mediate disputes, and they provide a system to resolve some easy disputes over physical goods under policies that protect both sides. But beyond that, what could they do? There's no simple way for them to decide whether you scammed that buyer or they scammed you. If they don't give you the money, they take themselves out of the equation and it's up to you to resolve the dispute in small claims court, where it belongs -- in front of a judge, not a 3rd party's customer service team.
joejohnson 15y ago
I spent over an hour on the phone with Mac support (remember, iTunes doesn’t have a customer support line) That's because Mac support lines are the iTunes support line. He obviously figured this one out, yet he keeps claiming there's no number to call for iTunes-related issues.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
brown9-2 15y ago
The PayPal representative I spoke to was very courteous and helpful, though he couldn’t confirm whether or not I would experience the dreaded PayPal account freeze as a result. After all, all of my income comes to me via PayPal. Wouldn't it make sense then to use a separate PayPal account for your self-employed business/income from what you use for personal purchases?
rickdale 15y ago
This isn't a problem limited in scope to Apple and Paypal. If you get your identity stolen in any way it can be a huge hassle and take over 12 months to completely figure it all out and clear out your credit. Speaking from personal experience, I had to call over 20 businesses, send each of them copies of the police reports, and remind some of them, to clear their marks on my credit report.
leephillips 15y ago
"I’d have to buy Mac OS X Lion again, Final Cut Pro, Compressor, hundreds of dollars in iOS apps, and hundreds more in Mac software" If you use commercial DRMed software you are asking for this. It is hard to feel sympathetic with this part of the story.
- antihero 15y ago
  Damn right, he's been digging his own grave, Apple just handed him the shovel.
sauravc 15y ago
It turns out the author of the article used to work at Apple in customer service. (According to his Google+ page https://plus.google.com/112301869379652563135/about https://plus.google.com/112301869379652563135/about) But he makes no mention of this in an article that speaks largely about the customer service of Apple and PayPal. I find this pretty disingenuous, and regardless of whether his story was factual or not, it takes the wind out of anything he's saying.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

135 points by MattRyanLG 15y ago

jobu 15y ago

Here's a tip: Don't use PayPal unless you absolutely have to. PayPal has taken to treating its customers as badly as many large banks. Many credit card companies are very proactive about fraudulent purchases online, and I even had Discover call me when they noticed a series of small purchases on iTunes. It turned out it wasn't exactly fraud (my 5yo on a home computer I hadn't signed out), but I was able to cut it off and I'm sure they saved me a bundle of money.

gav 15y ago
I've had experiences dealing with fraud from both PayPal and Bank of America recently. BoA were easy to get on the phone and refunded my money instantly. PayPal won't let you speak to a human, and after a week or so of going back and forth determined that it was acceptable for me to be overcharged for an item as long as I got the correct item in the mail. Using a real credit card (not debit) gets you a great deal of protection and is a better option than ever using PayPal.
- dangrossman 15y ago
  > PayPal won't let you speak to a human Really? I've spoken to humans at PayPal many times. When I call, I don't even have to navigate a phone tree or wait on hold, someone just answers. The people I talked to were helpful and knowledgeable about their service and handling problems (which is what I called about, some weird customer that sent a bunch of <10-cent payments to my account then disputed them, and more recently with a question about the new IRS 1099-K form). It wasn't hard to find the number to call either. You log in, click on Contact Us, then Call Us. Two clicks and you have a phone number.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - jmonegro 15y ago
    Same here. I've had problems with PayPal twice, and both times their support has been very courteous, quick, and helpful.
dkl 15y ago
Would it be fair to say that if both sides of the transaction are trusted then Paypal is OK? I would say that most of the time I use Paypal this is the case.
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  No, not even close. PayPal makes every transaction involve three parties, and PayPal imposes themselves even when unwanted by either buyer or seller. Notably, look up the various cases where people used PayPal for a charity or fundraiser, and PayPal cut off payments and stole the funds because they didn't quite grasp the concept of money changing hands without a product getting shipped.

theHeraldTV 15y ago

I've been using PayPal for nearly ten years now and never had any issues with the service. Now currently my bank account is overdrawn, and if I don't get it out of the red soon I won't be able to use PayPal with my eBay account, etc. That's not PayPay's fault -- it's my own for not managing my money better. Apple Inc. prides itself on its customer service. When I went in for a group interview to work at the local Apple Store that was the most important concept they drilled into our heads. That said, it's one thing for a company to talk the talk; it's quite another to walk the walk.

MattRyanLG 15y ago
Having worked for Apple customer service myself, I couldn't agree more. Apple does a lot to help the customers, but why iTunes doesn't have phone support is beyond me.
- Caballera 15y ago
  Apple has a lot of contact information that's easily available. http://www.apple.com/contact/ http://www.apple.com/contact/ sounds like someone did a charageback if they didn't do it one of the financial institutions did one.

dangrossman 15y ago

So: 1) Someone steals his PayPal account and uses it to buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes 2) He reports the fraud to PayPal, which refunds all of these payments to him 3) He reports to Wells Fargo that PayPal has engaged in fraud by taking these payments to fund his PayPal account, which is a false claim -- the transfer to PayPal was authorized as a funding source and PayPal was already handling the refunds 4) Three months later, PayPal gets hit with a bunch of disputes from Wells Fargo to take back money that's already been returned, double dipping and creating major hassles for them. Wells Fargo is, essentially, stealing from PayPal on the basis of this person's old false claim. PayPal flags the account. So PayPal did everything right: they were available for immediate contact, were "courteous and helpful", promptly reversed the fraudulent payments to iTunes, and his account was left in good standing while he was made financially whole. What more could they have done?

MattRyanLG 15y ago
PayPal informed me that I have to file a claim through my bank for the amount that had rolled over to the bank. PayPal ONLY refunded me the amount that PayPal didn't send to my bank. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in the article (there were two paragraphs about it), but those are the facts. PayPal was fairly good throughout the ordeal. It's the internal policies that conflict and caused further issues down the chain. I can only do what the CSR advises.
kstenerud 15y ago
"He reports to Wells Fargo that PayPal has engaged in fraud by taking these payments to fund his PayPal account, which is a false claim" No, he didn't. In his own words: "I told the representative there that I had reported the claim through PayPal, but wanted it noted that the charges made on my account that day were fraudulent in nature. The representative appeared to understand, and helped me make record of the incident." The problem isn't with PayPal or his bank, as they'd eventually sort out the ping-pong notifications. The real problem is with Apple's draconian policy of taking all of a customer's purchases and data away from him if fraud reports occur on three or more occasions, regardless of why they occur (such as in this case with ping-ponging notifications between Wells Fargo and PayPal). It's yet another reason to not trust your life to the cloud, and always procure a separate, pirated copy of your purchased software so that nobody can take it away from you.

spindritf 15y ago

Why is PayPal even in the title? They seem to have handled the case fine. Yeah, the additional freezes probably weren't necessary but it was Apple who went completely crazy. A user was hacked so they stop allowing him to update their software?! So that it can more easily happen again? And they will revoke his account (and license?) that allows him to use the software he bought?! This is like a horror story written by Richard Stallman. EDIT: On second thought, why do you even need an account to update the software? When I'm updating my Ubuntu, it's the software that's signed so that I can trust the repository. The user is not signed so that the repository can trust them, you can stay completely anonymous. Hell, even Microsoft never required me to jump through any sort of hoops to get updates. I once had to verify my key, that's it. Does Android require a Google account to use the market and get updates? Even if, you still can get an anonymous one. Why would anyone need my name to update their own software? It happens to run on my computer but that doesn't change anything.

shinratdr 15y ago
> And they will revoke his account (and license?) that allows him to use the software he bought?! This is like a horror story written by Richard Stallman. Hardly. Valve has been doing this with Steam for years. Microsoft does it with Xbox Live. It's the main caveat of a managed environment, sometimes the manager makes the wrong decisions. This might be bad or distasteful, but it's not novel or unique. It's par for the course when it comes to software distributed through a central DRM system. > Does Android require a Google account to use the market and get updates? Even if, you still can get an anonymous one. You can do that with iOS too. Likewise, If Google decides to revoke your access to your Gmail account that all your Android purchases are associated with because you violated Gmail policy perhaps, you would be in the same boat. Once again, not unique to Apple. Par for the DRM course.
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  I don't think you've actually disagreed with the original point in any way. :) As you point out, Steam and Xbox Live have exactly the same disturbing retroactive revocation property that Apple does; that doesn't make it any less of a horror story, just more disturbing that people put up with it. (I suspect people mostly just don't think about it, because it probably won't come up for them.)

soult 15y ago

What I am most curious about, and what has never been mentioned in the article or in the comments here, is, how the account was hacked. If the author not only has been hacked himself, but also knows other people who have been hacked, it should be possible to find the common denominator between them.

MattRyanLG 15y ago
That would be interesting to find out. It's hard to find a common ground between them, since my Sister-in-law has an incredibly different set of usage habits than I do. Further to that, she doesn't have an iPad/iPhone.

droithomme 15y ago

Amazing. I had no idea Apple could just arbitrarily (or even with great reasons) decide to shut down your Apple ID, killing your software and disable a lifetime of DRM protected music, ebook and application purchases. Reminds me of how you now must show a passport to leave the US and being behind on your child support is cause to prevent US citizens from leaving the country, just as if they lived in East Germany. Starts out, oh sure, we need this system to check to make sure you're not some kind of criminal. Then it is used for arbitrary control and enforcement of the whims of a cold centralized bureaucracy. Cough cough Stallman was right cough cough.

cageface 15y ago
Still worse, if you're an indie iOS developer they can yank your entire living out from under you without explanation. This happened to me this year, I suspect because I made some app store purchases while traveling abroad. They disabled my ID and refused to even tell me why and only reinstated it after a long and arduous exchange with support. I really enjoy developing for iOS but this was a sobering experience.
- lurker17 15y ago
  There are no "indie" iOS developers, because iOS developers are not independent. There are only "iOS contract developers", paid on a royalty basis, but retained at-will by Apple.
- brown9-2 15y ago
  Is it common to use the same Apple ID for personal purchases and your business app development?
  - aptwebapps 15y ago
    It sure seems like a bad idea now, doesn't it?
  - gte910h 15y ago
    I know a lot of devs. For the ones who do it full time, almost none of them do this.

patio11 15y ago

Curious that Paypal is getting the hate in the comments here: when did they threaten to permaban him from his software? Anyhow, constructively, you want to escalate to paper on both your bank and Apple (maybe Paypal as well, your call). Start getting an evidence trail together with certified mail, return receipt requested. Apple will kvetch a bit but they (and virtually every other large company) understand the difference between that and a phone call, which you should stop doing immediately, because the contents of them are known to be totally opaque to judges. You probably won't have to sue anyone, but the demonstrable capability of suing will cause them to escalate this issue internally very, very rapidly.

jellicle 15y ago
> You probably won't have to sue anyone, but the demonstrable capability of suing will cause them to escalate this issue internally very, very rapidly. Not even slightly true. They don't care. The cost of the occasional lawsuit is baked into the system cost already.
- spindritf 15y ago
  > The cost of the occasional lawsuit is baked into the system cost already. The cost of an "Apple can disable your computer" (true, or not) headline may be substantial and more convincing.
- patio11 15y ago
  So my background in this is in consumer debt issues, largely dealing with banks, CC companies, and debt collection agencies. In my pre-HN days, I spent a lot of time hanging out on a message board for folks who had issues with that, after having a credit report that got totally trashed because of a poorly chosen hash function causing my identity to collide with someone else's. Because I have really screwy hobbies I would write letters for folks to send to their banks. Add the two dozen letters I had to send for myself and I have personal knowledge that this definitively resolved the issue in 40+ cases, in many cases jumping over "our policy is to never...", "you can't do that", and collections at fairly advanced stages. It is entirely possible that Apple is a tougher nut to crack than BoA or Capital One, but that is not the way that I would bet. Edit: By the way, this is a catchphrase for me: bureaucracies are stage machines which take paper as input and return outcomes you want. Hackers should be comfortable with paper. Consider it an opportunity to demonstrate your ability to hack non-technical systems.

TomGullen 15y ago

The Paypal dispute policy is broken in my opinion. Admittedly we've only had a few disputes (in the region of ~10) but without failure the disputers ALWAYS gets their money back. The worst case we had was when one customer made a payment to us, and we got an email saying the payment was on hold whilst Paypal authorises and investigates this payment. A day or two later we got an email from Paypal saying their investigation is complete, and we can ship the item. We sent our software license off to the buyer and within a couple of hours they disputed it and won all their money back the next day. Paypal each time make us feel like there's nothing we can do, there's no dialogue, there's no acknowledgements, it's extremely frustrating sometimes.

dangrossman 15y ago
I've had the opposite experience. I also sell intangibles like software, and win virtually all disputes. The PayPal Buyer Protection Policy does not cover services and virtual goods. Simply escalating to a claim and writing "NON-TANGIBLE, SERVICES" in the tracking number box gets it closed in my favor 90% of the time when someone is lying to get the service or software for free. http://i.imgur.com/GEY70.png http://i.imgur.com/GEY70.png http://i.imgur.com/IQlA9.png http://i.imgur.com/IQlA9.png http://i.imgur.com/vHAsP.png http://i.imgur.com/vHAsP.png ...etc. More transparency and human interaction would be nice, but I don't think PayPal could do much better from a policy standpoint. They provide a platform to self-mediate disputes, and they provide a system to resolve some easy disputes over physical goods under policies that protect both sides. But beyond that, what could they do? There's no simple way for them to decide whether you scammed that buyer or they scammed you. If they don't give you the money, they take themselves out of the equation and it's up to you to resolve the dispute in small claims court, where it belongs -- in front of a judge, not a 3rd party's customer service team.

joejohnson 15y ago

I spent over an hour on the phone with Mac support (remember, iTunes doesn’t have a customer support line) That's because Mac support lines are the iTunes support line. He obviously figured this one out, yet he keeps claiming there's no number to call for iTunes-related issues.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

brown9-2 15y ago

The PayPal representative I spoke to was very courteous and helpful, though he couldn’t confirm whether or not I would experience the dreaded PayPal account freeze as a result. After all, all of my income comes to me via PayPal. Wouldn't it make sense then to use a separate PayPal account for your self-employed business/income from what you use for personal purchases?

rickdale 15y ago

This isn't a problem limited in scope to Apple and Paypal. If you get your identity stolen in any way it can be a huge hassle and take over 12 months to completely figure it all out and clear out your credit. Speaking from personal experience, I had to call over 20 businesses, send each of them copies of the police reports, and remind some of them, to clear their marks on my credit report.

leephillips 15y ago

"I’d have to buy Mac OS X Lion again, Final Cut Pro, Compressor, hundreds of dollars in iOS apps, and hundreds more in Mac software" If you use commercial DRMed software you are asking for this. It is hard to feel sympathetic with this part of the story.

antihero 15y ago
Damn right, he's been digging his own grave, Apple just handed him the shovel.

sauravc 15y ago

It turns out the author of the article used to work at Apple in customer service. (According to his Google+ page https://plus.google.com/112301869379652563135/about https://plus.google.com/112301869379652563135/about) But he makes no mention of this in an article that speaks largely about the customer service of Apple and PayPal. I find this pretty disingenuous, and regardless of whether his story was factual or not, it takes the wind out of anything he's saying.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]