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... please just kill yourself now I don't think someone who actually knows what it's like to experience suicidal thoughts would ever say something like that to

• dirtyaura 15y ago
  I suppose it's more a cultural issue - no Finn would read that post as seriously as you did. Many would consider it hilarious. It's quite typical in informal Finnish way of speaking to use "dark" metaphors, and granted they come out a little bit clumsy in English, but I know a lot of Finnish coders who express themselves with similar language that Torvalds does. I remember a few incidents from my Nokia career where this caused "issues" when we were communicating with Nokia employees in US over the email.
  • lurker17 15y ago
    It's the same in US English. The issue is just that there are 1-10% of people who are sensitive to the issue, and computing has grown from a small club of close friends/enemies/frenemies to a more mainstream activity, there is a growing call for being more welcoming and "politicallyy correct" tone in conversation. For example, on the official Mozilla Bugzilla, diverting from technical debate to non-technical vitriolic commentary is a bannable offense, regardless of the value of the user's technical contribution. It's just a toxic way of communicating, and if someone can't package their thoughts for public consumption, it may be better to keep their thoughts (semi-)private and leave it to someone more tactful to spread the word more widely and effect positive change.
    • javert 15y ago
      I think this is quite different from "political correctness" as the term is typically used, which is regarding issues of gender, ethnicity, political opinion, etc. It's the same in US English I don't agree. I've never thought of it before, but to be honest, in my 25 years of life, I've never seen the kind of behavior Linus is famous for on the part of anyone besides Europeans. (Most of whom, I should add, do not appear to be this way.)
      • LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
        In the professional gaming scene when you beat someone in a match you also say "I raped him hard" and nobody thinks of it as a real rape.
        • bkirwi 15y ago
          I'm aware of several people that have been driven away from gaming by this kind of culture. It's not as harmless as it seems from the inside, I think.
          • LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
            If you say it in-game at an official tournament you may be punished for that. But casters say this from time to time without feeling bad.
      • jlawer 15y ago
        That dark and exaggerated sense of humour is common at least amongst Brits, Irish, Aussies & Kiwis. However I wouldn't say it isn't in the US. Most Boston & some New York stand-up comedians I have seen seem to have a similar personality. Maybe this is self selecting, but the US comedians I have seen from these areas tend to have that same personality. I really don't think this is a big deal..
        • javert 15y ago
          I'm not talking about comedians, for pete sake. I'm talking about software development in a professional context.
          • icebraining 15y ago
            So why are you talking about professional context on a story about a post in a personal profile on a social network?
            • 15y ago
    • AndresNavarro 15y ago
      I don't think it's the same in US English, I think the parent is right. Here in Buenos Aires one can say "kill yourself" (which would be "matate" in the rioplatense dialect of Spanish) for almost anything and nobody would bat an eye. In English, it sounds/looks pretty harsh, at least to my non native ears/eyes.
    • pavanky 15y ago
      That is his personal Google+ profile. I am not sure if he would ask people to kill themselves (even if he is harsh) in a mailing list or other open forums..
    • weff 15y ago
      I guess you could also reverse the idea: if someone is offended by every cultural difference, maybe one should refrain from... living in a multi-cultural world? What is "public consumption" anyway? I don't want to have everyone communicating through death threats but I also want even less for everyone to sound like a PR representative. Maybe the solution is to simply understand the cultural differences?
  • ajb 15y ago
    When I see Torvalds say these things in a video - the one where he slags off subversion being the famous example - it's obvious to me that he's not being serious. But it seems much more arrogant, threatening even, written down, without the other cues.
• mongol 15y ago
  Yes I agree. And it is like every other quote from Linus contains similar exaggregations. I think it is his biggest weakness.
  • javert 15y ago
    I've seen a lot of his stuff before, and nothing has "shocked" me like this did. That said, he's probably used this particular phrase a lot before, but maybe it just seemed particularly unexpected and worthless here.
  • beedogs 15y ago
    If the use of hyperbole you find discomforting, on his own personal blog, is his biggest weakness, then I'd say he's doing pretty well, as a human being.
  • flomo 15y ago
    This type of 'edgy' language was very popular back on Usenet in the 1990s, and the Linux kernel mailing list never really got away from it. Very much a Generation X thing - Kill yourself, they're smoking crack, those retards, kick em in the nuts, etc etc, yawn.
    • roel_v 15y ago
      Ouch, now you're making me feel old, I still do those things, and yes have done for 15 years.
  • vacri 15y ago
    The stuff people point at and post is highly selected. Try reading further down the page - there are dozens of inoffensive posts by Torvalds. There's been posts here on HN doing just what you're saying "Look, a quote from Torvalds where he's abrasive"... then people look back at the posting history where he's explaining his point, and he's had dozens of polite comments before reaching breaking point. So yeah - try reading down the page further before you claim half of what he says is like this.
• jlawer 15y ago
  As someone who has had professional help to go through what I will only refer to as "the dark patch of my life" I think your over reacting. This might be a cultural thing but as an Aussie, this is viewed as pure exaggeration and has NO connection to reality. If there is no connection to reality then why get upset about it? If there is no intention for a slight then why care? Maybe this is one of the subtle cultural differences, but surely you agree it isn't fair to judge someone on your own cultural standard on the internet over something simple as a few words? If your truely offended by him, just ignore him. In my mind the conversation is richer if we don't need to be so careful about dropping to the "Lowest Common denominator". Let there be colour, excitement, rants and exaggeration. In the end I think it helps understand people more then putting on the facade of beige that so many politically correct people insist on.
  • javert 15y ago
    There is a connection to reality. What Linus is saying is: if you don't agree with me, you're an incompetent developer, get out of the way and shut up, and I don't want to hear any counter-argument. It's a means of quality enforcement, to some degree. OK. But there is a point where it goes too far. I don't insist on political correctness. I haven't complained about Linus' normal insults but he's telling people to kill themselves... it's a step too far.
    • icebraining 15y ago
      You should read Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective. You'd be surprised (and in your case, probably shocked) at what people call each other without any intention of actually insulting them. For example, here in Portugal and in informal situations, it's reasonably common for a person to use an expression that essentially calls their mother a whore because they made something that somewhat annoyed you. Of course, no one is actually insinuating their mother sells her body for money, it's just an expression.
      • javert 15y ago
        Thanks. I may actually read that, because it's clear to me that a lot of things really aggravate me that don't aggravate a lot of other people in the FOSS world, and if I want to get along, I'd better get over it. (Though that doesn't mean I will condone it or do it myself.)
• batista 15y ago
  Actually, the above comment immediately tells me: "oh, another American, why can't the guys take a bloody joke, we're not all 9 year olds". It rarely is a French guy or a British complaining on such matters.
  • javert 15y ago
    Umm, Linus is not "joking." This is his normal manner of speaking. This is not supposed to elicit laughs; it's supposed to emphasize his point.
    • batista 15y ago
      This is not supposed to elicit laughs; it's supposed to emphasize his point. Of course, I know that. Not all jokes are there to elicit laughs --unless one is a clown or a stand-up comedian. It's a joke in the sense that it's not meant seriously. As, in, if somebody DID kill himself following his advice, Linus would be genuinely upset, sad, and most of all surprised.
      • javert 15y ago
        You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. Unless it's just an established colloquialism of everyday speech, as maybe it is for Finns. I don't think that should be brought to other cultures.
        • batista 15y ago
          You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. I did. Have you? Definition #2 from Mirriam-Webster: "something not to be taken seriously". Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. You know what they say about opinions. Lots of people the world over enjoy the occasional colorful comment, and do not get their knickers tied up in a knot (UK-ism meaning they are not annoyed) when non PC language is used. Hell, lots of cultures the world over think political correctness itself as silly and/or prudish.
• tygorius 15y ago
  Been there, done that, got the meds. It taught me the valuable distinction between normal mood swings and out-of-whack brain chemistry. Seriously, if you have a strong bout of suicidal thoughts in reaction to flippant remarks such at Torvalds's then you need to bring this up to a mental health professional because your current coping mechanism isn't working. If you're merely tut-tutting with disapproval however I simply disagree. Wanting a world where people never get their feelings hurt is a fruitless quest.
  • javert 15y ago
    Your speculation on and advice about my mental health is rude and insulting. I'm not merely "tut-tutting". I don't think telling people to commit suicide because of a legitimate technical disagrement or hurdle is acceptable. If you disagree, put up a reasoned argument or shut up.
    • akira2501 15y ago
      I think the problem is that you honestly believe that he was genuinely telling people that they should die. It's an expression, and not terribly uncommon, either.
      • javert 15y ago
        Honestly, I've never heard that kind of thing (as in "kill yourself" not "you're a moron" - that one is par for the course among kernel hackers) said outside of Linus Torvalds, Ulrich Drepper maybe, and comedians and the like that are in an explicitly comedic situation. I realize he doesn't mean it literally. Anyway, this is just to clarify, not to argue further.
        • VMG 15y ago
          In case you are wondering: if somebody tells you to "go fuck yourself" he doesn't literally want you to do that.
          • 15y ago
• beedogs 15y ago
  ...really? I use hyperbole like that all the time on the Internet, and I really don't consider myself "mentally disturbed". That's a pretty bold accusation to be making of people who simply typed some shit on the Internet.
• simonh 15y ago
  "Linus Torvalds arrested for Suse security death threats". Every time I think of travelling to America again, I read something like this and think... nope, not worth it.
• rimantas 15y ago
  Going down this path you will find yourself in a place where you cannot say or do anything without offending someone.