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Of all the things humans participate in to try and forget we eventually die, rejecting the one thing that makes humans special (our society, culture) seems to b

by Zetice 3y ago

Of all the things humans participate in to try and forget we eventually die, rejecting the one thing that makes humans special (our society, culture) seems to be to be among the most myopic viewpoints to take. Mostly because it's so self-defeating. Counter-culture is a culture, just a different one. All of the stuff you hated about human culture and want to eschew also exists in the "counter" culture!

xyzelement 3y ago
Maybe off topic to what you meant but I find the "to forget we will die" an unfortunate frame. I find some of the best people are motivated by the knowledge that they will die and therefore try to make good and impactful use of their limited time here. I recently had a thought : I know a rabbi who has 11 children. If all of his children follow suit, he will get to meet 121 of his grandchildren in the next 20-30 years. Now imagine you are on your deathbed and you are surrounded by your 11 children and 121 grandchildren and they are all good and strong people. Do you really lament your own death or do you have a feeling of 'I will be continued.' A new thought for me...
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  I think my feeling would be “The planet cannot possibly stand having 100 grandchildren for every current person. What have I done!?!?”
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    The "good news" (though I don't think it's good) is that an average person is having zero children. I suspect a generation out, we will be super grateful for those who had many, not those who had none. Or more like, we'll probably completely forget about those who had none - as history has with those who've made that decision in the past.
    - lo_zamoyski 3y ago
      Indeed. We are experiencing a demographic catastrophe. Malthusian hysteria seems impervious to reason. > I suspect a generation out, we will be super grateful for those who had many, not those who had none. By definition! An understatement. Exactly zero members of the future population will be descendants of those who had no children, and it is difficult to imagine anyone of sound mind shaking his fist at his ancestors for having bred.
  - throwawaylinux 3y ago
    But we still should have more. Even many of the ruling class who have among their highest priorities the goal of shifting the blame and burden for climate change onto the commoners believe that birth rates are so low that even immigration is needed to increase populations in the most highly polluting per-capita countries. So if climate change is one of the greatest threats facing humanity, the population crisis must be even greater.
- lo_zamoyski 3y ago
  > Do you really lament your own death or do you have a feeling of 'I will be continued.' The rabbi is very blessed and I am happy for him, but it is important to note that this line involves an equivocation of two meanings of "continuation", using the figurative meaning (in the sense of "legacy") to suggest the literal meaning (immortality). Legacy is all fine and good, but it is no substitute for immortality. Furthermore, legacy without immortality merely passes the buck: those children and grandchildren, too, will die. The human species and the universe will probably be extinguished. So even the value of legacy really presupposes the immortality of the human person. To wit, a true materialist, trapped, as he is, in bad metaphysics, cannot take comfort in legacy on his death bed. His life, and the lives of everyone else, are reducible to nothing but meaningless atoms bouncing around aimlessly in a void, temporary arrangements that briefly coagulate and then dissolve. Nothing lasts, nothing progresses, nothing makes any difference, all is senseless flux. Perhaps the materialist simply won't care about his passing, as it will be as meaningless as the rest of his brief existence.
  - ip26 3y ago
    I agree intellectually, of course. But there’s something strange about watching my kid grow. They are so much like me. Sometimes it’s as if I can read their mind.
mock-possum 3y ago
Self defeating? Au contrair, it’s self perpetuating! Subcultures continuously spin off, develop new interesting features that the mainstream is too chickenshit to fuck with, only for those features to inevitably be absorbed back into the primary culture. Every weirdo has something to offer!

by Zetice 3y ago

xyzelement 3y ago

Maybe off topic to what you meant but I find the "to forget we will die" an unfortunate frame. I find some of the best people are motivated by the knowledge that they will die and therefore try to make good and impactful use of their limited time here. I recently had a thought : I know a rabbi who has 11 children. If all of his children follow suit, he will get to meet 121 of his grandchildren in the next 20-30 years. Now imagine you are on your deathbed and you are surrounded by your 11 children and 121 grandchildren and they are all good and strong people. Do you really lament your own death or do you have a feeling of 'I will be continued.' A new thought for me...

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
I think my feeling would be “The planet cannot possibly stand having 100 grandchildren for every current person. What have I done!?!?”
- xyzelement 3y ago
  The "good news" (though I don't think it's good) is that an average person is having zero children. I suspect a generation out, we will be super grateful for those who had many, not those who had none. Or more like, we'll probably completely forget about those who had none - as history has with those who've made that decision in the past.
  - lo_zamoyski 3y ago
    Indeed. We are experiencing a demographic catastrophe. Malthusian hysteria seems impervious to reason. > I suspect a generation out, we will be super grateful for those who had many, not those who had none. By definition! An understatement. Exactly zero members of the future population will be descendants of those who had no children, and it is difficult to imagine anyone of sound mind shaking his fist at his ancestors for having bred.
- throwawaylinux 3y ago
  But we still should have more. Even many of the ruling class who have among their highest priorities the goal of shifting the blame and burden for climate change onto the commoners believe that birth rates are so low that even immigration is needed to increase populations in the most highly polluting per-capita countries. So if climate change is one of the greatest threats facing humanity, the population crisis must be even greater.
lo_zamoyski 3y ago
> Do you really lament your own death or do you have a feeling of 'I will be continued.' The rabbi is very blessed and I am happy for him, but it is important to note that this line involves an equivocation of two meanings of "continuation", using the figurative meaning (in the sense of "legacy") to suggest the literal meaning (immortality). Legacy is all fine and good, but it is no substitute for immortality. Furthermore, legacy without immortality merely passes the buck: those children and grandchildren, too, will die. The human species and the universe will probably be extinguished. So even the value of legacy really presupposes the immortality of the human person. To wit, a true materialist, trapped, as he is, in bad metaphysics, cannot take comfort in legacy on his death bed. His life, and the lives of everyone else, are reducible to nothing but meaningless atoms bouncing around aimlessly in a void, temporary arrangements that briefly coagulate and then dissolve. Nothing lasts, nothing progresses, nothing makes any difference, all is senseless flux. Perhaps the materialist simply won't care about his passing, as it will be as meaningless as the rest of his brief existence.
- ip26 3y ago
  I agree intellectually, of course. But there’s something strange about watching my kid grow. They are so much like me. Sometimes it’s as if I can read their mind.

mock-possum 3y ago

Self defeating? Au contrair, it’s self perpetuating! Subcultures continuously spin off, develop new interesting features that the mainstream is too chickenshit to fuck with, only for those features to inevitably be absorbed back into the primary culture. Every weirdo has something to offer!