4 ms·

>The suite of extra software utilities required to make the base OS usable is ridiculous Use Windows or Linux. Good luck and have fun!

LoganDark 3y ago
Windows isn't Unix, which is one of macOS's biggest selling points for developers and hackers (remember which website you're on). Recommending it as the solution whenever someone complains about macOS is counterproductive, because in many cases it's not a suitable substitute for macOS. WSL isn't a solution to this problem, especially ever since they gave up adding support to the actual Windows kernel and just used a virtual machine. I shouldn't have to wait for all my software to add support for putting the WSL wrapper around all of their commands. I should be able to just run them on bare metal. This is why JetBrains IDEs can do profiling, valgrind etc on macOS but not Windows.
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  It's tiring to read almost everyday on HN: “the amount of work required to make this circle into a square is ridiculous”. Some of us enjoy circles. Use whatever you like, but complaining A is not B is annoying.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    You clearly missed the point of my comment, which is not to say that Windows should be Unix, but that the fact that it is not means that you probably should not be recommending it as a universal cure-all to people who probably use macOS for a reason. In other words, it only sounds "annoying" because you seem to not understand why people would use a Unix operating system, and why Windows is not a suitable substitute. (This is assuming they use macOS for its Unixness, but enough people use it for that reason that you probably shouldn't be telling people to just use Windows and "have fun". To your credit, you did also list Linux.)
    - tambourine_man 3y ago
      I use a Mac, always have. My complaint is that people jump to criticize a way of working, saying it's unusable, when there are plenty of others that have enjoyed working this way for 40 years and are extremely productive that way. Perhaps question if your old habits don't apply in a new context? And just because it's a WIMP UI you shouldn't expect it to work exactly like your former? That it's a new paradigm, with different metaphors, advantages and trade-offs?
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        > My complaint is that people jump to criticize a way of working, saying it's unusable, when there are plenty of others that have enjoyed working this way for 40 years and are extremely productive that way. Well, I didn't do that. I said Windows misses a desirable quality that macOS has, which makes it unacceptable as a substitute for macOS, specifically, if one relies on this desirable quality. > Perhaps question if your old habits don't apply in a new context? And just because it's a WIMP UI you shouldn't expect it to work exactly like your former? That it's a new paradigm, with different metaphors, advantages and trade-offs? Do you see how you just proved my point? According to your argument the answer would be "Well just don't desire that quality then." and, gee, I sure wish the whole tech world could just do that, it sounds so easy.
      - detourdog 3y ago
        I see the comments the same way and half the time they seem misinformed. How many Mac users are looking to move windows with the keyboard because the mouse is too much of a burden.
  - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
    No one is complaining A is not B. Everyone is complaining that macOS lacks some fairly basic UX options and is being neglected by Apple which corrects these flaws at a glacial pace.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - tambourine_man 3y ago
      Oh, but they are. I'm extremely productive on stock macOS, way more than on Windows. I just don't keep complaining that Windows is broken. Some people obviously love it.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - threatofrain 3y ago
      On a tangent, I don't see what's wrong with complaining that A ≠ B. Complaining is just the precursor to voting with your feet, and having more or less than competitor offerings is a natural point of comparison in a customer's mind.
      - tambourine_man 3y ago
        Sure, but there’s a limit. You wouldn’t complain that there’s no beef on a vegan restaurant. The Mac’s thing has always been resizable overlapping windows with a menu bar at the top of the screen. If you’re hoping for a great tiling window manager, you’ll be disappointed. You can kind of get a poor man’s tiling setup with some hacks, but it’s not what the platform is about.
    - troupo 3y ago
      > Everyone is complaining that macOS lacks some fairly basic UX options What you call "basic UX options" are highly opinionated personal views. I've used Macs since 2007 and haven't used a single one of the dozen or so "basic UX" tools people listed in the discussion.
  - eviks 3y ago
    Now try to go beyond a shallow dismissive analogy and explain specifically in the case of linear mouse why disabling acceleration is trying to make a circle into a square? (and consider the fact that your circle company has added that square peg into their latest oval OS)
    - tambourine_man 3y ago
      “My circle company” is cute. What I’m trying to convey here is that, while I hate Windows' mouse acceleration, to the point of being almost unusable to me, I don’t go on forums ranting about how ridiculous the amount of tweaking the OS requires to be usable. There are fortunately other choices that fit my sensibilities much better. Why try to bend Microsoft to my particularities, especially when there are billions of perfectly happy users? Ideally you’d want every OS to feature every possible preference setting. In practice, every feature increases the surface for bugs, loses focus on limited resources, puts the burden of choice on the user, etc. There needs to be a vision, an opinion, a personality to a product. You can either share that or look for a different platform.
      - eviks 3y ago
        But you're doing even worse - you go on forums ranting about people criticizing legitimate OS deficiencies! > Why try to bend Microsoft to my particularities Many reasons, but specific to this conversation: because it's not a square! Tweakability of these things is part of "essence" of a general purpose OS, so that's the flaw of your analogy, and why you have to resort to generic analogies instead of explaining how a specific tweak is bad
        tambourine_man 3y ago
        >…legitimate OS deficiencies! That’s where we differ. >…instead of explaining how a specific tweak is bad I have, but I’ll try one last time. Could Apple build an industry leading tiling window manager? Perhaps. Would that please most of its users? Probably not. Would it delay other more pressing demands? Surely.

LoganDark 3y ago

Windows isn't Unix, which is one of macOS's biggest selling points for developers and hackers (remember which website you're on). Recommending it as the solution whenever someone complains about macOS is counterproductive, because in many cases it's not a suitable substitute for macOS. WSL isn't a solution to this problem, especially ever since they gave up adding support to the actual Windows kernel and just used a virtual machine. I shouldn't have to wait for all my software to add support for putting the WSL wrapper around all of their commands. I should be able to just run them on bare metal. This is why JetBrains IDEs can do profiling, valgrind etc on macOS but not Windows.

tambourine_man 3y ago
It's tiring to read almost everyday on HN: “the amount of work required to make this circle into a square is ridiculous”. Some of us enjoy circles. Use whatever you like, but complaining A is not B is annoying.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  You clearly missed the point of my comment, which is not to say that Windows should be Unix, but that the fact that it is not means that you probably should not be recommending it as a universal cure-all to people who probably use macOS for a reason. In other words, it only sounds "annoying" because you seem to not understand why people would use a Unix operating system, and why Windows is not a suitable substitute. (This is assuming they use macOS for its Unixness, but enough people use it for that reason that you probably shouldn't be telling people to just use Windows and "have fun". To your credit, you did also list Linux.)
  - tambourine_man 3y ago
    I use a Mac, always have. My complaint is that people jump to criticize a way of working, saying it's unusable, when there are plenty of others that have enjoyed working this way for 40 years and are extremely productive that way. Perhaps question if your old habits don't apply in a new context? And just because it's a WIMP UI you shouldn't expect it to work exactly like your former? That it's a new paradigm, with different metaphors, advantages and trade-offs?
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      > My complaint is that people jump to criticize a way of working, saying it's unusable, when there are plenty of others that have enjoyed working this way for 40 years and are extremely productive that way. Well, I didn't do that. I said Windows misses a desirable quality that macOS has, which makes it unacceptable as a substitute for macOS, specifically, if one relies on this desirable quality. > Perhaps question if your old habits don't apply in a new context? And just because it's a WIMP UI you shouldn't expect it to work exactly like your former? That it's a new paradigm, with different metaphors, advantages and trade-offs? Do you see how you just proved my point? According to your argument the answer would be "Well just don't desire that quality then." and, gee, I sure wish the whole tech world could just do that, it sounds so easy.
    - detourdog 3y ago
      I see the comments the same way and half the time they seem misinformed. How many Mac users are looking to move windows with the keyboard because the mouse is too much of a burden.
- WastingMyTime89 3y ago
  No one is complaining A is not B. Everyone is complaining that macOS lacks some fairly basic UX options and is being neglected by Apple which corrects these flaws at a glacial pace.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - tambourine_man 3y ago
    Oh, but they are. I'm extremely productive on stock macOS, way more than on Windows. I just don't keep complaining that Windows is broken. Some people obviously love it.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - threatofrain 3y ago
    On a tangent, I don't see what's wrong with complaining that A ≠ B. Complaining is just the precursor to voting with your feet, and having more or less than competitor offerings is a natural point of comparison in a customer's mind.
    - tambourine_man 3y ago
      Sure, but there’s a limit. You wouldn’t complain that there’s no beef on a vegan restaurant. The Mac’s thing has always been resizable overlapping windows with a menu bar at the top of the screen. If you’re hoping for a great tiling window manager, you’ll be disappointed. You can kind of get a poor man’s tiling setup with some hacks, but it’s not what the platform is about.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > Everyone is complaining that macOS lacks some fairly basic UX options What you call "basic UX options" are highly opinionated personal views. I've used Macs since 2007 and haven't used a single one of the dozen or so "basic UX" tools people listed in the discussion.
- eviks 3y ago
  Now try to go beyond a shallow dismissive analogy and explain specifically in the case of linear mouse why disabling acceleration is trying to make a circle into a square? (and consider the fact that your circle company has added that square peg into their latest oval OS)
  - tambourine_man 3y ago
    “My circle company” is cute. What I’m trying to convey here is that, while I hate Windows' mouse acceleration, to the point of being almost unusable to me, I don’t go on forums ranting about how ridiculous the amount of tweaking the OS requires to be usable. There are fortunately other choices that fit my sensibilities much better. Why try to bend Microsoft to my particularities, especially when there are billions of perfectly happy users? Ideally you’d want every OS to feature every possible preference setting. In practice, every feature increases the surface for bugs, loses focus on limited resources, puts the burden of choice on the user, etc. There needs to be a vision, an opinion, a personality to a product. You can either share that or look for a different platform.
    - eviks 3y ago
      But you're doing even worse - you go on forums ranting about people criticizing legitimate OS deficiencies! > Why try to bend Microsoft to my particularities Many reasons, but specific to this conversation: because it's not a square! Tweakability of these things is part of "essence" of a general purpose OS, so that's the flaw of your analogy, and why you have to resort to generic analogies instead of explaining how a specific tweak is bad
      - tambourine_man 3y ago
        >…legitimate OS deficiencies! That’s where we differ. >…instead of explaining how a specific tweak is bad I have, but I’ll try one last time. Could Apple build an industry leading tiling window manager? Perhaps. Would that please most of its users? Probably not. Would it delay other more pressing demands? Surely.