12 ms·

Linus torvalds on security

153 points by sagarun 15y ago

javert 15y ago
... please just kill yourself now I don't think someone who actually knows what it's like to experience suicidal thoughts would ever say something like that to people in a technical/professional context. There is something to be said for the "tough love" Linux culture, but IMO, language as extreme as what I just quoted is just not acceptable. For me, this is crossing the line from "Linus has an interesting and entertaining character" to "this person seems to be mentally disturbed."
- dirtyaura 15y ago
  I suppose it's more a cultural issue - no Finn would read that post as seriously as you did. Many would consider it hilarious. It's quite typical in informal Finnish way of speaking to use "dark" metaphors, and granted they come out a little bit clumsy in English, but I know a lot of Finnish coders who express themselves with similar language that Torvalds does. I remember a few incidents from my Nokia career where this caused "issues" when we were communicating with Nokia employees in US over the email.
  - lurker17 15y ago
    It's the same in US English. The issue is just that there are 1-10% of people who are sensitive to the issue, and computing has grown from a small club of close friends/enemies/frenemies to a more mainstream activity, there is a growing call for being more welcoming and "politicallyy correct" tone in conversation. For example, on the official Mozilla Bugzilla, diverting from technical debate to non-technical vitriolic commentary is a bannable offense, regardless of the value of the user's technical contribution. It's just a toxic way of communicating, and if someone can't package their thoughts for public consumption, it may be better to keep their thoughts (semi-)private and leave it to someone more tactful to spread the word more widely and effect positive change.
    - javert 15y ago
      I think this is quite different from "political correctness" as the term is typically used, which is regarding issues of gender, ethnicity, political opinion, etc. It's the same in US English I don't agree. I've never thought of it before, but to be honest, in my 25 years of life, I've never seen the kind of behavior Linus is famous for on the part of anyone besides Europeans. (Most of whom, I should add, do not appear to be this way.)
      - LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
        In the professional gaming scene when you beat someone in a match you also say "I raped him hard" and nobody thinks of it as a real rape.
        bkirwi 15y ago
        I'm aware of several people that have been driven away from gaming by this kind of culture. It's not as harmless as it seems from the inside, I think.
        LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
        If you say it in-game at an official tournament you may be punished for that. But casters say this from time to time without feeling bad.
      - jlawer 15y ago
        That dark and exaggerated sense of humour is common at least amongst Brits, Irish, Aussies & Kiwis. However I wouldn't say it isn't in the US. Most Boston & some New York stand-up comedians I have seen seem to have a similar personality. Maybe this is self selecting, but the US comedians I have seen from these areas tend to have that same personality. I really don't think this is a big deal..
        javert 15y ago
        I'm not talking about comedians, for pete sake. I'm talking about software development in a professional context.
  - ajb 15y ago
    When I see Torvalds say these things in a video - the one where he slags off subversion being the famous example - it's obvious to me that he's not being serious. But it seems much more arrogant, threatening even, written down, without the other cues.
- mongol 15y ago
  Yes I agree. And it is like every other quote from Linus contains similar exaggregations. I think it is his biggest weakness.
  - javert 15y ago
    I've seen a lot of his stuff before, and nothing has "shocked" me like this did. That said, he's probably used this particular phrase a lot before, but maybe it just seemed particularly unexpected and worthless here.
  - beedogs 15y ago
    If the use of hyperbole you find discomforting, on his own personal blog, is his biggest weakness, then I'd say he's doing pretty well, as a human being.
  - flomo 15y ago
    This type of 'edgy' language was very popular back on Usenet in the 1990s, and the Linux kernel mailing list never really got away from it. Very much a Generation X thing - Kill yourself, they're smoking crack, those retards, kick em in the nuts, etc etc, yawn.
    - roel_v 15y ago
      Ouch, now you're making me feel old, I still do those things, and yes have done for 15 years.
  - vacri 15y ago
    The stuff people point at and post is highly selected. Try reading further down the page - there are dozens of inoffensive posts by Torvalds. There's been posts here on HN doing just what you're saying "Look, a quote from Torvalds where he's abrasive"... then people look back at the posting history where he's explaining his point, and he's had dozens of polite comments before reaching breaking point. So yeah - try reading down the page further before you claim half of what he says is like this.
- jlawer 15y ago
  As someone who has had professional help to go through what I will only refer to as "the dark patch of my life" I think your over reacting. This might be a cultural thing but as an Aussie, this is viewed as pure exaggeration and has NO connection to reality. If there is no connection to reality then why get upset about it? If there is no intention for a slight then why care? Maybe this is one of the subtle cultural differences, but surely you agree it isn't fair to judge someone on your own cultural standard on the internet over something simple as a few words? If your truely offended by him, just ignore him. In my mind the conversation is richer if we don't need to be so careful about dropping to the "Lowest Common denominator". Let there be colour, excitement, rants and exaggeration. In the end I think it helps understand people more then putting on the facade of beige that so many politically correct people insist on.
  - javert 15y ago
    There is a connection to reality. What Linus is saying is: if you don't agree with me, you're an incompetent developer, get out of the way and shut up, and I don't want to hear any counter-argument. It's a means of quality enforcement, to some degree. OK. But there is a point where it goes too far. I don't insist on political correctness. I haven't complained about Linus' normal insults but he's telling people to kill themselves... it's a step too far.
    - icebraining 15y ago
      You should read Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective. You'd be surprised (and in your case, probably shocked) at what people call each other without any intention of actually insulting them. For example, here in Portugal and in informal situations, it's reasonably common for a person to use an expression that essentially calls their mother a whore because they made something that somewhat annoyed you. Of course, no one is actually insinuating their mother sells her body for money, it's just an expression.
      - javert 15y ago
        Thanks. I may actually read that, because it's clear to me that a lot of things really aggravate me that don't aggravate a lot of other people in the FOSS world, and if I want to get along, I'd better get over it. (Though that doesn't mean I will condone it or do it myself.)
- batista 15y ago
  Actually, the above comment immediately tells me: "oh, another American, why can't the guys take a bloody joke, we're not all 9 year olds". It rarely is a French guy or a British complaining on such matters.
  - javert 15y ago
    Umm, Linus is not "joking." This is his normal manner of speaking. This is not supposed to elicit laughs; it's supposed to emphasize his point.
    - batista 15y ago
      This is not supposed to elicit laughs; it's supposed to emphasize his point. Of course, I know that. Not all jokes are there to elicit laughs --unless one is a clown or a stand-up comedian. It's a joke in the sense that it's not meant seriously. As, in, if somebody DID kill himself following his advice, Linus would be genuinely upset, sad, and most of all surprised.
      - javert 15y ago
        You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. Unless it's just an established colloquialism of everyday speech, as maybe it is for Finns. I don't think that should be brought to other cultures.
        batista 15y ago
        You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. I did. Have you? Definition #2 from Mirriam-Webster: "something not to be taken seriously". Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. You know what they say about opinions. Lots of people the world over enjoy the occasional colorful comment, and do not get their knickers tied up in a knot (UK-ism meaning they are not annoyed) when non PC language is used. Hell, lots of cultures the world over think political correctness itself as silly and/or prudish.
- tygorius 15y ago
  Been there, done that, got the meds. It taught me the valuable distinction between normal mood swings and out-of-whack brain chemistry. Seriously, if you have a strong bout of suicidal thoughts in reaction to flippant remarks such at Torvalds's then you need to bring this up to a mental health professional because your current coping mechanism isn't working. If you're merely tut-tutting with disapproval however I simply disagree. Wanting a world where people never get their feelings hurt is a fruitless quest.
  - javert 15y ago
    Your speculation on and advice about my mental health is rude and insulting. I'm not merely "tut-tutting". I don't think telling people to commit suicide because of a legitimate technical disagrement or hurdle is acceptable. If you disagree, put up a reasoned argument or shut up.
    - akira2501 15y ago
      I think the problem is that you honestly believe that he was genuinely telling people that they should die. It's an expression, and not terribly uncommon, either.
      - javert 15y ago
        Honestly, I've never heard that kind of thing (as in "kill yourself" not "you're a moron" - that one is par for the course among kernel hackers) said outside of Linus Torvalds, Ulrich Drepper maybe, and comedians and the like that are in an explicitly comedic situation. I realize he doesn't mean it literally. Anyway, this is just to clarify, not to argue further.
        VMG 15y ago
        In case you are wondering: if somebody tells you to "go fuck yourself" he doesn't literally want you to do that.
        15y ago
- beedogs 15y ago
  ...really? I use hyperbole like that all the time on the Internet, and I really don't consider myself "mentally disturbed". That's a pretty bold accusation to be making of people who simply typed some shit on the Internet.
- simonh 15y ago
  "Linus Torvalds arrested for Suse security death threats". Every time I think of travelling to America again, I read something like this and think... nope, not worth it.
- rimantas 15y ago
  Going down this path you will find yourself in a place where you cannot say or do anything without offending someone.
ajross 15y ago
A little intemperate but pretty much right IMHO. It's far too easy, bureaucratically, for someone to tighten a security screw than loosen it. So straightforward goofs like this (e.g. there's no permissions system in place for printer or wifi addition yet, so you need root -- just a architecture thing, not an authentication requirement) get locked down by their interaction with the security subsystem. So no one wants to make the call as to whether "security will break" if you allow printer configuration to non-root users. So nothing happens. That said, modern linux certainly has mechanisms in place to handle this stuff. Fedora and Ubuntu don't seem to have a problem with seamless system configuration from the console user anyway.
cpswan 15y ago
It's funny that some of the areas that he touches on are also things where Windows requires local admin. Clearly a messed up privileged action model seems to be common across OSes.
- 16s 15y ago
  They're all reading from the same books, thus the same mistakes.
- huhtenberg 15y ago
  Don't get started on Windows. Just don't. You know that UAC prompt you get when running setup.exe for an IM client? Ever wondered why there's an UAC prompt in the first place? Because Windows assumes that setup.exe needs admin privileges (unless .exe explicitly states that it doesn't). This piece of engineering doesn't even have a concept of ~/bin. In fact, there is/was an official W7 guideline that said that all programs must go into %ProgramFiles%, which is a system directory. Now, what sort of a imbecile decided that it's a good idea to let an underprivileged account install into a system directory - UAC or not - is beyond me. So, please, don't mix Windows in. While Linux distros have their dark moments, Windows is just one big service pack now.
  - ewams 15y ago
    Sources?
  - mhurron 15y ago
    The official installation path for Windows being Program Files is no different than the expected installation for the majority of .deb or .rpm files being /usr. In both cases, you can't install software with its default assumption as a unprivileged user. The defaults on both Windows and basically every Linux distribution assume software installs are done by a privileged account. You can install to c:\Users\%USERNAME% if you want to, if the installer lets you pick a path, this is how Chrome installs. Just like you can install into ~/bin if you want to, but you are going to have to go a little out of your way to do it.
Iulian 15y ago
The real problem is the `MacBook Air`, not security...
- batista 15y ago
  Really? How so? Because the MacBook Air has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and it is by Linux admission the best laptop for him (from the thread: "Trust me, I tried. Nothing better exists. It's sad. They are all big and clunky").
DarkShikari 15y ago
The worst part is that this kind of thing actually makes security worse. If you force people to bypass security to do ordinary tasks, and train them to constantly enter the root password for everything, you don't actually have any security. It's like the password policy that's so impractical that everyone sticky-notes passwords to their monitors, or the Vista UAC.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- astrodust 15y ago
  Too many alerts like that and you're all "Yeah, yeah, whatever, 123123abc here you go".
Duff 15y ago
He is wrong about date/time setting. Most computers have automatic time sync, and consistent time stamps are important for many business purposes. Giving end users the ability to manipulate time can cause significant issues. Is it overkill for Linus's kids? Yes. But OpenSUSE wasn't put together for his kids.
- alextgordon 15y ago
  I think you may have misread. > I first spent weeks arguing on a bugzilla that the security policy of requiring the root password for changing the timezone The time zone is a completely presentational setting, something that users can be expected to want to change every so often. And it has no relation to timestamps.
  - beatle 15y ago
    Changing time zones can fuck up a server application.
    - batista 15y ago
      No, the server application should have it's own timezone setting, like almost any serious server has, and/or use UTC time. And a distro must not assume you're using it for server applications, when you install a personal installation on your laptop.
      - beatle 15y ago
        don't tell me. tell the linux developers who created the server application.
    - Wilya 15y ago
      Time zone setting can (and should) be a user-specific setting. Since a server application most likely isn't running as a the same user as the "real" logged-in user, there's no reason anything bad would happen.
tantalor 15y ago
Really ought to link to the proper URL for the post: https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCY...
- davidw 15y ago
  The photo of Timberline was nice though:-) Linus has got to be one of Oregon's more illustrious citizens.
viraptor 15y ago
It really depends on the context / configuration (or at least should depend on). Imagine a host available to public at a library. Considering that people can come there to print out some sensitive documents, you don't want to allow normal users to change printer settings. Someone could remove the default one and set up a tunnel through his own host, capturing all documents on the wire before they hit the printer. Very similar situation exists for the WiFi networks. Of course this doesn't make any sense on a laptop. But it doesn't look like there's any sane default. You need to choose your configuration properly and that's it. If OpenSUSE doesn't allow it, then yes... that's a bug.
- icebraining 15y ago
  I disagree. Defaults should be prioritized; they should optimize for the majority of the users, not the minority, and for the casual home user, not big organizations (like libraries), since they're more likely to have professionals configuring the system.
- justncase80 15y ago
  In cases like this, couldn't the library administrator just remove the rights for all their machines? Create a user account with less privileges than a normal user and let patrons use that.
SkyMarshal 15y ago
>.. and now I need to find a new distro that actually works on the Macbook Air. What would that be exactly? I didn't realize any Linux distro's worked well on MBA yet.
jnazario 15y ago
every now and then linus peeks in at what passes for linux, freaks out, gets pissed off at the state of things, vents, and everyone chimes in. so i'll chime in. this is what you get when you are laissez-faire about how things operate in the land you helped create and ignore issues (via guidance and suggestions) for years on end. this happened with wifi some years ago, too, and didn't get attention until linus got a laptop with wifi. this is just one reason why i stopped using linux day to day over ten years ago, happily.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  >this is just one reason why i stopped using linux day to day over ten years ago, happily. It's gotten a whole lot better in the last 10 years.
  - jnazario 15y ago
    use it on servers at work, it's gotten horribly confusing in terms of configs. real scary, inconsistent mess. i don't use it as my primary machine or dev machine any more. i'd say i'm pretty up to date with it (and alternatives) and still disagree with you. "whole lot"? i disagree.
- vacri 15y ago
  Why is a kernel dictator responsible for the userspace? what genuine authority does Torvalds have over gnome or kde? It's not Torvalds' responsibility, implied or otherwise, to manage what kind of password userspace requires for setting config settings.
  - jnazario 15y ago
    linus is notoriously opposed to security, calling the security community various names over the years. the capabilities exposed by the kernel have direct impact on userland. if security isn't a priority for linus and is left to third parties, then you wind up with all sorts of stuff that is the ecosystem we have today. some is great, some is awful. without attention and respect from the guy in charge of the kernel, which gates security for the system, this is what you get.
donniezazen 15y ago
I find it funny, how effortlessly Linus trashes people.
- 16s 15y ago
  Seems to be part of the free OS culture. Everyone trashes someone. Theo and the OpenBSD devs think Linux is garbage written by people who don't understnd Unix. All of the free OS guys have someone they make fun of regularly. It's a bit silly I think, but that's just how it is. "Look at them, they use C++... ha ha ha idiots. Oh look at them, they use Linux... utter and complete bloated garbage compared to real Unix." Wash, rinse, repeat.
  - mayanksinghal 15y ago
    If not overdone, I think it is fun. The community will mature at some point in future, but currently the evangelists comprise of not professionals whose jobs are to get these platforms/softwares to more people but passionate fans and contributors who believe in the product and think that their's is the best of them all. It does lead to an unnecessary increase in tension in the community but it also means that those who are involved will be true to their beliefs and contribute to their distro/software/platform in a much more personal and devoted way. And it is not like commercial software community is never involved with any flamewars. When they do it, they do it for marketing and they do it professionally [1] [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EbCkotKPU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EbCkotKPU
  - vacri 15y ago
    Because the paid-for consumer OS culture don't have their own punching-bag memes? Apple's 'smug field'? Windows 'malware'? Each of these has large contigents that mock others, and frequently with quite some disdain. It's far from unique to FOSS.
- thetroll 15y ago
  same here. Linus is a man with strong opinions, so i guess the kind of language he uses helps reflects that. and i find it funny that people get upset so much over it. some "political correctness" crap. look, you don't control what other people say or does, but you can control how that affects you. if you're going to seriously get upset about someone telling you to "kill yourself", you should get yourself a psychiatrist. because you really just might.
antoncohen 15y ago
Fedora had this problem last time I used it, things like adding printers prompted for the actual root password (according the docs Fedora 16 still prompts for the root password). Ubuntu (and Mint) got it right. There are privilege groups that can be set so things like adding printers and wifi networks don't ask for a password. For things the user doesn't have privileges for, if they are an admin it will prompt for their user password (sudo-style) instead of the root password. As Linus said, the SUSE and Fedora way makes it hard to deploy in a business setting where you want users to be able to administrate their own machines but you don't want them to have the root password.
trevi 15y ago
He is spot on, but I find (and always found) his wording way too aggressive. Makes it kind of hard to have a constructive discussion on the topic, which by the way really needs such discussion.
- sjwright 15y ago
  It's also kind of hard to have a constructive discussion on the topic if nobody takes notice. Without the invectives, it probably wouldn't have been noteworthy enough to spread like wildfire across the hacker sphere.
yitchelle 15y ago
Why is it news when Linus mention something so obviously frustrating as the security scheme is on OpenSUSE? Would it make a difference if s/Linus/JoeBlog/ mentioned it if the issue is so frustrating?
- dpcx 15y ago
  It's all about the perceived level of intelligence related to the field. It'd be no different than Rand Paul making a fuss about budgets versus Joe Blog.

153 points by sagarun 15y ago

... please just kill yourself now I don't think someone who actually knows what it's like to experience suicidal thoughts would ever say something like that to people in a technical/professional context. There is something to be said for the "tough love" Linux culture, but IMO, language as extreme as what I just quoted is just not acceptable. For me, this is crossing the line from "Linus has an interesting and entertaining character" to "this person seems to be mentally disturbed."

dirtyaura 15y ago
I suppose it's more a cultural issue - no Finn would read that post as seriously as you did. Many would consider it hilarious. It's quite typical in informal Finnish way of speaking to use "dark" metaphors, and granted they come out a little bit clumsy in English, but I know a lot of Finnish coders who express themselves with similar language that Torvalds does. I remember a few incidents from my Nokia career where this caused "issues" when we were communicating with Nokia employees in US over the email.
- lurker17 15y ago
  It's the same in US English. The issue is just that there are 1-10% of people who are sensitive to the issue, and computing has grown from a small club of close friends/enemies/frenemies to a more mainstream activity, there is a growing call for being more welcoming and "politicallyy correct" tone in conversation. For example, on the official Mozilla Bugzilla, diverting from technical debate to non-technical vitriolic commentary is a bannable offense, regardless of the value of the user's technical contribution. It's just a toxic way of communicating, and if someone can't package their thoughts for public consumption, it may be better to keep their thoughts (semi-)private and leave it to someone more tactful to spread the word more widely and effect positive change.
  - javert 15y ago
    I think this is quite different from "political correctness" as the term is typically used, which is regarding issues of gender, ethnicity, political opinion, etc. It's the same in US English I don't agree. I've never thought of it before, but to be honest, in my 25 years of life, I've never seen the kind of behavior Linus is famous for on the part of anyone besides Europeans. (Most of whom, I should add, do not appear to be this way.)
    - LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
      In the professional gaming scene when you beat someone in a match you also say "I raped him hard" and nobody thinks of it as a real rape.
      - bkirwi 15y ago
        I'm aware of several people that have been driven away from gaming by this kind of culture. It's not as harmless as it seems from the inside, I think.
        LinaLauneBaer 15y ago
        If you say it in-game at an official tournament you may be punished for that. But casters say this from time to time without feeling bad.
    - jlawer 15y ago
      That dark and exaggerated sense of humour is common at least amongst Brits, Irish, Aussies & Kiwis. However I wouldn't say it isn't in the US. Most Boston & some New York stand-up comedians I have seen seem to have a similar personality. Maybe this is self selecting, but the US comedians I have seen from these areas tend to have that same personality. I really don't think this is a big deal..
      - javert 15y ago
        I'm not talking about comedians, for pete sake. I'm talking about software development in a professional context.
- ajb 15y ago
  When I see Torvalds say these things in a video - the one where he slags off subversion being the famous example - it's obvious to me that he's not being serious. But it seems much more arrogant, threatening even, written down, without the other cues.
mongol 15y ago
Yes I agree. And it is like every other quote from Linus contains similar exaggregations. I think it is his biggest weakness.
- javert 15y ago
  I've seen a lot of his stuff before, and nothing has "shocked" me like this did. That said, he's probably used this particular phrase a lot before, but maybe it just seemed particularly unexpected and worthless here.
- beedogs 15y ago
  If the use of hyperbole you find discomforting, on his own personal blog, is his biggest weakness, then I'd say he's doing pretty well, as a human being.
- flomo 15y ago
  This type of 'edgy' language was very popular back on Usenet in the 1990s, and the Linux kernel mailing list never really got away from it. Very much a Generation X thing - Kill yourself, they're smoking crack, those retards, kick em in the nuts, etc etc, yawn.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    Ouch, now you're making me feel old, I still do those things, and yes have done for 15 years.
- vacri 15y ago
  The stuff people point at and post is highly selected. Try reading further down the page - there are dozens of inoffensive posts by Torvalds. There's been posts here on HN doing just what you're saying "Look, a quote from Torvalds where he's abrasive"... then people look back at the posting history where he's explaining his point, and he's had dozens of polite comments before reaching breaking point. So yeah - try reading down the page further before you claim half of what he says is like this.
jlawer 15y ago
As someone who has had professional help to go through what I will only refer to as "the dark patch of my life" I think your over reacting. This might be a cultural thing but as an Aussie, this is viewed as pure exaggeration and has NO connection to reality. If there is no connection to reality then why get upset about it? If there is no intention for a slight then why care? Maybe this is one of the subtle cultural differences, but surely you agree it isn't fair to judge someone on your own cultural standard on the internet over something simple as a few words? If your truely offended by him, just ignore him. In my mind the conversation is richer if we don't need to be so careful about dropping to the "Lowest Common denominator". Let there be colour, excitement, rants and exaggeration. In the end I think it helps understand people more then putting on the facade of beige that so many politically correct people insist on.
- javert 15y ago
  There is a connection to reality. What Linus is saying is: if you don't agree with me, you're an incompetent developer, get out of the way and shut up, and I don't want to hear any counter-argument. It's a means of quality enforcement, to some degree. OK. But there is a point where it goes too far. I don't insist on political correctness. I haven't complained about Linus' normal insults but he's telling people to kill themselves... it's a step too far.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    You should read Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective. You'd be surprised (and in your case, probably shocked) at what people call each other without any intention of actually insulting them. For example, here in Portugal and in informal situations, it's reasonably common for a person to use an expression that essentially calls their mother a whore because they made something that somewhat annoyed you. Of course, no one is actually insinuating their mother sells her body for money, it's just an expression.
    - javert 15y ago
      Thanks. I may actually read that, because it's clear to me that a lot of things really aggravate me that don't aggravate a lot of other people in the FOSS world, and if I want to get along, I'd better get over it. (Though that doesn't mean I will condone it or do it myself.)
batista 15y ago
Actually, the above comment immediately tells me: "oh, another American, why can't the guys take a bloody joke, we're not all 9 year olds". It rarely is a French guy or a British complaining on such matters.
- javert 15y ago
  Umm, Linus is not "joking." This is his normal manner of speaking. This is not supposed to elicit laughs; it's supposed to emphasize his point.
  - batista 15y ago
    This is not supposed to elicit laughs; it's supposed to emphasize his point. Of course, I know that. Not all jokes are there to elicit laughs --unless one is a clown or a stand-up comedian. It's a joke in the sense that it's not meant seriously. As, in, if somebody DID kill himself following his advice, Linus would be genuinely upset, sad, and most of all surprised.
    - javert 15y ago
      You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. Unless it's just an established colloquialism of everyday speech, as maybe it is for Finns. I don't think that should be brought to other cultures.
      - batista 15y ago
        You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. I did. Have you? Definition #2 from Mirriam-Webster: "something not to be taken seriously". Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. You know what they say about opinions. Lots of people the world over enjoy the occasional colorful comment, and do not get their knickers tied up in a knot (UK-ism meaning they are not annoyed) when non PC language is used. Hell, lots of cultures the world over think political correctness itself as silly and/or prudish.
tygorius 15y ago
Been there, done that, got the meds. It taught me the valuable distinction between normal mood swings and out-of-whack brain chemistry. Seriously, if you have a strong bout of suicidal thoughts in reaction to flippant remarks such at Torvalds's then you need to bring this up to a mental health professional because your current coping mechanism isn't working. If you're merely tut-tutting with disapproval however I simply disagree. Wanting a world where people never get their feelings hurt is a fruitless quest.
- javert 15y ago
  Your speculation on and advice about my mental health is rude and insulting. I'm not merely "tut-tutting". I don't think telling people to commit suicide because of a legitimate technical disagrement or hurdle is acceptable. If you disagree, put up a reasoned argument or shut up.
  - akira2501 15y ago
    I think the problem is that you honestly believe that he was genuinely telling people that they should die. It's an expression, and not terribly uncommon, either.
    - javert 15y ago
      Honestly, I've never heard that kind of thing (as in "kill yourself" not "you're a moron" - that one is par for the course among kernel hackers) said outside of Linus Torvalds, Ulrich Drepper maybe, and comedians and the like that are in an explicitly comedic situation. I realize he doesn't mean it literally. Anyway, this is just to clarify, not to argue further.
      - VMG 15y ago
        In case you are wondering: if somebody tells you to "go fuck yourself" he doesn't literally want you to do that.
        15y ago
beedogs 15y ago
...really? I use hyperbole like that all the time on the Internet, and I really don't consider myself "mentally disturbed". That's a pretty bold accusation to be making of people who simply typed some shit on the Internet.
simonh 15y ago
"Linus Torvalds arrested for Suse security death threats". Every time I think of travelling to America again, I read something like this and think... nope, not worth it.
rimantas 15y ago
Going down this path you will find yourself in a place where you cannot say or do anything without offending someone.

ajross 15y ago

A little intemperate but pretty much right IMHO. It's far too easy, bureaucratically, for someone to tighten a security screw than loosen it. So straightforward goofs like this (e.g. there's no permissions system in place for printer or wifi addition yet, so you need root -- just a architecture thing, not an authentication requirement) get locked down by their interaction with the security subsystem. So no one wants to make the call as to whether "security will break" if you allow printer configuration to non-root users. So nothing happens. That said, modern linux certainly has mechanisms in place to handle this stuff. Fedora and Ubuntu don't seem to have a problem with seamless system configuration from the console user anyway.

cpswan 15y ago

It's funny that some of the areas that he touches on are also things where Windows requires local admin. Clearly a messed up privileged action model seems to be common across OSes.

16s 15y ago
They're all reading from the same books, thus the same mistakes.
huhtenberg 15y ago
Don't get started on Windows. Just don't. You know that UAC prompt you get when running setup.exe for an IM client? Ever wondered why there's an UAC prompt in the first place? Because Windows assumes that setup.exe needs admin privileges (unless .exe explicitly states that it doesn't). This piece of engineering doesn't even have a concept of ~/bin. In fact, there is/was an official W7 guideline that said that all programs must go into %ProgramFiles%, which is a system directory. Now, what sort of a imbecile decided that it's a good idea to let an underprivileged account install into a system directory - UAC or not - is beyond me. So, please, don't mix Windows in. While Linux distros have their dark moments, Windows is just one big service pack now.
- ewams 15y ago
  Sources?
- mhurron 15y ago
  The official installation path for Windows being Program Files is no different than the expected installation for the majority of .deb or .rpm files being /usr. In both cases, you can't install software with its default assumption as a unprivileged user. The defaults on both Windows and basically every Linux distribution assume software installs are done by a privileged account. You can install to c:\Users\%USERNAME% if you want to, if the installer lets you pick a path, this is how Chrome installs. Just like you can install into ~/bin if you want to, but you are going to have to go a little out of your way to do it.

Iulian 15y ago

The real problem is the `MacBook Air`, not security...

batista 15y ago
Really? How so? Because the MacBook Air has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and it is by Linux admission the best laptop for him (from the thread: "Trust me, I tried. Nothing better exists. It's sad. They are all big and clunky").

DarkShikari 15y ago

The worst part is that this kind of thing actually makes security worse. If you force people to bypass security to do ordinary tasks, and train them to constantly enter the root password for everything, you don't actually have any security. It's like the password policy that's so impractical that everyone sticky-notes passwords to their monitors, or the Vista UAC.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
astrodust 15y ago
Too many alerts like that and you're all "Yeah, yeah, whatever, 123123abc here you go".

Duff 15y ago

He is wrong about date/time setting. Most computers have automatic time sync, and consistent time stamps are important for many business purposes. Giving end users the ability to manipulate time can cause significant issues. Is it overkill for Linus's kids? Yes. But OpenSUSE wasn't put together for his kids.

alextgordon 15y ago
I think you may have misread. > I first spent weeks arguing on a bugzilla that the security policy of requiring the root password for changing the timezone The time zone is a completely presentational setting, something that users can be expected to want to change every so often. And it has no relation to timestamps.
- beatle 15y ago
  Changing time zones can fuck up a server application.
  - batista 15y ago
    No, the server application should have it's own timezone setting, like almost any serious server has, and/or use UTC time. And a distro must not assume you're using it for server applications, when you install a personal installation on your laptop.
    - beatle 15y ago
      don't tell me. tell the linux developers who created the server application.
  - Wilya 15y ago
    Time zone setting can (and should) be a user-specific setting. Since a server application most likely isn't running as a the same user as the "real" logged-in user, there's no reason anything bad would happen.

tantalor 15y ago

Really ought to link to the proper URL for the post: https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCY...

davidw 15y ago
The photo of Timberline was nice though:-) Linus has got to be one of Oregon's more illustrious citizens.

viraptor 15y ago

It really depends on the context / configuration (or at least should depend on). Imagine a host available to public at a library. Considering that people can come there to print out some sensitive documents, you don't want to allow normal users to change printer settings. Someone could remove the default one and set up a tunnel through his own host, capturing all documents on the wire before they hit the printer. Very similar situation exists for the WiFi networks. Of course this doesn't make any sense on a laptop. But it doesn't look like there's any sane default. You need to choose your configuration properly and that's it. If OpenSUSE doesn't allow it, then yes... that's a bug.

icebraining 15y ago
I disagree. Defaults should be prioritized; they should optimize for the majority of the users, not the minority, and for the casual home user, not big organizations (like libraries), since they're more likely to have professionals configuring the system.
justncase80 15y ago
In cases like this, couldn't the library administrator just remove the rights for all their machines? Create a user account with less privileges than a normal user and let patrons use that.

SkyMarshal 15y ago

>.. and now I need to find a new distro that actually works on the Macbook Air. What would that be exactly? I didn't realize any Linux distro's worked well on MBA yet.

jnazario 15y ago

every now and then linus peeks in at what passes for linux, freaks out, gets pissed off at the state of things, vents, and everyone chimes in. so i'll chime in. this is what you get when you are laissez-faire about how things operate in the land you helped create and ignore issues (via guidance and suggestions) for years on end. this happened with wifi some years ago, too, and didn't get attention until linus got a laptop with wifi. this is just one reason why i stopped using linux day to day over ten years ago, happily.

redthrowaway 15y ago
>this is just one reason why i stopped using linux day to day over ten years ago, happily. It's gotten a whole lot better in the last 10 years.
- jnazario 15y ago
  use it on servers at work, it's gotten horribly confusing in terms of configs. real scary, inconsistent mess. i don't use it as my primary machine or dev machine any more. i'd say i'm pretty up to date with it (and alternatives) and still disagree with you. "whole lot"? i disagree.
vacri 15y ago
Why is a kernel dictator responsible for the userspace? what genuine authority does Torvalds have over gnome or kde? It's not Torvalds' responsibility, implied or otherwise, to manage what kind of password userspace requires for setting config settings.
- jnazario 15y ago
  linus is notoriously opposed to security, calling the security community various names over the years. the capabilities exposed by the kernel have direct impact on userland. if security isn't a priority for linus and is left to third parties, then you wind up with all sorts of stuff that is the ecosystem we have today. some is great, some is awful. without attention and respect from the guy in charge of the kernel, which gates security for the system, this is what you get.

donniezazen 15y ago

I find it funny, how effortlessly Linus trashes people.

16s 15y ago
Seems to be part of the free OS culture. Everyone trashes someone. Theo and the OpenBSD devs think Linux is garbage written by people who don't understnd Unix. All of the free OS guys have someone they make fun of regularly. It's a bit silly I think, but that's just how it is. "Look at them, they use C++... ha ha ha idiots. Oh look at them, they use Linux... utter and complete bloated garbage compared to real Unix." Wash, rinse, repeat.
- mayanksinghal 15y ago
  If not overdone, I think it is fun. The community will mature at some point in future, but currently the evangelists comprise of not professionals whose jobs are to get these platforms/softwares to more people but passionate fans and contributors who believe in the product and think that their's is the best of them all. It does lead to an unnecessary increase in tension in the community but it also means that those who are involved will be true to their beliefs and contribute to their distro/software/platform in a much more personal and devoted way. And it is not like commercial software community is never involved with any flamewars. When they do it, they do it for marketing and they do it professionally [1] [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EbCkotKPU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EbCkotKPU
- vacri 15y ago
  Because the paid-for consumer OS culture don't have their own punching-bag memes? Apple's 'smug field'? Windows 'malware'? Each of these has large contigents that mock others, and frequently with quite some disdain. It's far from unique to FOSS.
thetroll 15y ago
same here. Linus is a man with strong opinions, so i guess the kind of language he uses helps reflects that. and i find it funny that people get upset so much over it. some "political correctness" crap. look, you don't control what other people say or does, but you can control how that affects you. if you're going to seriously get upset about someone telling you to "kill yourself", you should get yourself a psychiatrist. because you really just might.

antoncohen 15y ago

Fedora had this problem last time I used it, things like adding printers prompted for the actual root password (according the docs Fedora 16 still prompts for the root password). Ubuntu (and Mint) got it right. There are privilege groups that can be set so things like adding printers and wifi networks don't ask for a password. For things the user doesn't have privileges for, if they are an admin it will prompt for their user password (sudo-style) instead of the root password. As Linus said, the SUSE and Fedora way makes it hard to deploy in a business setting where you want users to be able to administrate their own machines but you don't want them to have the root password.

trevi 15y ago

He is spot on, but I find (and always found) his wording way too aggressive. Makes it kind of hard to have a constructive discussion on the topic, which by the way really needs such discussion.

sjwright 15y ago
It's also kind of hard to have a constructive discussion on the topic if nobody takes notice. Without the invectives, it probably wouldn't have been noteworthy enough to spread like wildfire across the hacker sphere.

yitchelle 15y ago

Why is it news when Linus mention something so obviously frustrating as the security scheme is on OpenSUSE? Would it make a difference if s/Linus/JoeBlog/ mentioned it if the issue is so frustrating?

dpcx 15y ago
It's all about the perceived level of intelligence related to the field. It'd be no different than Rand Paul making a fuss about budgets versus Joe Blog.