4 ms·

Even plant farming isn't without issues. Plant farming eventually strips the nutrients from the soil, and then they end up having to use lots of man made chemic

Even plant farming isn't without issues. Plant farming eventually strips the nutrients from the soil, and then they end up having to use lots of man made chemicals to "fix" the problem. We have to find a way to be more sustainable in our agriculture.

xnx 3y ago
Absolutely. A great way to reduce the impact of plant farming is to do less of it. Something like 1/3 of farmland is used to grow crops that are fed to animals. https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture
- asciimov 3y ago
  How many more things will we have to plant to offset the meat eating?
  - myshpa 3y ago
    If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets We could double forest area, stop biodiversity loss and store whole 1.5C carbon budget with subsequent reforestation effort. Studies confirming this exist. It's the easiest and surest way how to stop climate change.
ben_w 3y ago
> Plant farming eventually strips the nutrients from the soil Crop rotation predates the wheel by about two millennia. We're using the synthetic alternative because it's really amazing not because we don't have alternatives.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  > because it's really amazing on the timeframes and liability frameworks that govern industrial decision-making Small but critical detail.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    I'd say more "government" timescale; food may technically be from private farms selling on free markets, but they're heavily subsidised because of the fundamental importance to society of making sure we never, ever, under any circumstances, have a famine. Not after what happened last time. (What happened last time varying between country, of course).
hombre_fatal 3y ago
That's fine and all, but you're not accounting for the fact that we'd need much fewer crops if we fed those crops directly to humans. All of the problems you perceive about crops apply even more to animal agriculture due to trophic level efficiency loss. You're inadvertently making the case against animal ag.
- baremetal 3y ago
  Chickens turn kitchen waste and other garbage into nutrient dense eggs. I raise chickens and feed them my kitchen and yard waste. They also eat bugs. Two chicken eggs can power me all day. Reason about that "trophic energy loss [gain]".
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    I'm not sure what your "not muh eggs!" story has anything to do with a discussion about animal ag industry and scaling meat production to global levels. For example, how much do your backyard chickens contribute to global egg consumption, and what would the egg market look like if all eggs came from chickens living like yours? That's the kind of topic going on here.
    - TrispusAttucks 3y ago
      Animals converting plants to meat/protein is more efficient than humans directly eating an entirely plant based diet.
      - myshpa 3y ago
        It sure isn't. Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... The climate benefits of veganism and vegetarianism https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220429-the-climate-benefits-of-veganism-and-vegetarianism https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220429-the-climate-bene... https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/1600x900/p0c41hws.webp https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/1600x900/p0c41hws.webp Estimating the environmental impacts of 57,000 food products https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2120584119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2120584119 Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Why the food system is the next frontier in climate action Virtually all paths to a net-zero-emissions food system rely on consumers in high-income countries shifting to a more plant-forward diet, according to a recent study. https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/04/why-the-food-system-is-the-next-frontier-in-climate-action/ https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/04/why-the-food-syst...
myshpa 3y ago
Cows eat 22 kg of plants to make 1 kg of meat, out of every 100 kcal you feed them you'll get 2 kcal of meat. Why not skip the inefficient intermediary? And we could/should use nitrogen fixing plants and biodiversity instead of man made chemicals.

xnx 3y ago

Absolutely. A great way to reduce the impact of plant farming is to do less of it. Something like 1/3 of farmland is used to grow crops that are fed to animals. https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture https://ourworldindata.org/global-land-for-agriculture

asciimov 3y ago
How many more things will we have to plant to offset the meat eating?
- myshpa 3y ago
  If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets We could double forest area, stop biodiversity loss and store whole 1.5C carbon budget with subsequent reforestation effort. Studies confirming this exist. It's the easiest and surest way how to stop climate change.

ben_w 3y ago

> Plant farming eventually strips the nutrients from the soil Crop rotation predates the wheel by about two millennia. We're using the synthetic alternative because it's really amazing not because we don't have alternatives.

ethanbond 3y ago
> because it's really amazing on the timeframes and liability frameworks that govern industrial decision-making Small but critical detail.
- ben_w 3y ago
  I'd say more "government" timescale; food may technically be from private farms selling on free markets, but they're heavily subsidised because of the fundamental importance to society of making sure we never, ever, under any circumstances, have a famine. Not after what happened last time. (What happened last time varying between country, of course).

hombre_fatal 3y ago

That's fine and all, but you're not accounting for the fact that we'd need much fewer crops if we fed those crops directly to humans. All of the problems you perceive about crops apply even more to animal agriculture due to trophic level efficiency loss. You're inadvertently making the case against animal ag.

baremetal 3y ago
Chickens turn kitchen waste and other garbage into nutrient dense eggs. I raise chickens and feed them my kitchen and yard waste. They also eat bugs. Two chicken eggs can power me all day. Reason about that "trophic energy loss [gain]".
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  I'm not sure what your "not muh eggs!" story has anything to do with a discussion about animal ag industry and scaling meat production to global levels. For example, how much do your backyard chickens contribute to global egg consumption, and what would the egg market look like if all eggs came from chickens living like yours? That's the kind of topic going on here.
  - TrispusAttucks 3y ago
    Animals converting plants to meat/protein is more efficient than humans directly eating an entirely plant based diet.
    - myshpa 3y ago
      It sure isn't. Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... The climate benefits of veganism and vegetarianism https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220429-the-climate-benefits-of-veganism-and-vegetarianism https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220429-the-climate-bene... https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/1600x900/p0c41hws.webp https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/1600x900/p0c41hws.webp Estimating the environmental impacts of 57,000 food products https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2120584119 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2120584119 Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Why the food system is the next frontier in climate action Virtually all paths to a net-zero-emissions food system rely on consumers in high-income countries shifting to a more plant-forward diet, according to a recent study. https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/04/why-the-food-system-is-the-next-frontier-in-climate-action/ https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/04/why-the-food-syst...

myshpa 3y ago

Cows eat 22 kg of plants to make 1 kg of meat, out of every 100 kcal you feed them you'll get 2 kcal of meat. Why not skip the inefficient intermediary? And we could/should use nitrogen fixing plants and biodiversity instead of man made chemicals.