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I have worked professionally with access control and surveillance. I can give you two manufacturer recommendations: Axis and Geovision. Axis cameras are high e

I have worked professionally with access control and surveillance. I can give you two manufacturer recommendations: Axis and Geovision. Axis cameras are high end and expensive, but they will, in my experience, do anything an IP camera could reasonably be expected to do, and they will do it well. They are European in origin and are available from various retail outlets to ship this week. Geovision cameras are low end and not expensive. They are Taiwanese in origin and are pretty easy to find. I have personally configured a wide range of cameras from both of these manufacturers and I have never needed an app or internet connectivity. It's been a few years since I looked at Geovision's product lineup though, my information is not 100% current. I don't have any specific camera recommendations. If I were setting up a home NVR today, I would buy Geovision cameras and put them on an isolated network. Both of these manufacturers are nominally ONVIF compliant (ONVIF compliance is a mixed bag and can't be fully trusted from any manufacturer IMO) and have readily accessible RTSP streams

vermilingua 3y ago
To add to this: search the catalog of whatever access control / electronic security wholesaler is local to your country. Almost all stock IP CCTV cameras and peripherals, and it's an easy way to get an idea of what manufacturers produce the cameras you need. Panasonic and Hikvision cameras are also quite good for a more reasonable price than Axis, but I'd agree with the above poster that they are the gold standard in IP CCTV.
akerl_ 3y ago
I can second this. I have several Axis M1065-LW cameras inside (running on wall plugs and wifi) and several Axis P1447-LE externally (running on PoE). Would recommend both of them. Notably, I had one exterior camera fail (wouldn’t run off PoE), and the Axis support/RMA process was smooth and fast.
- kova12 3y ago
  P1447-LE is sold for over $500 used. What is it that's inside of that camera, which makes it so pricey?!
  - dboreham 3y ago
    The fact that someone will reply to your support email and fix bugs?
    - strunz 3y ago
      And not supply your video feed to the CCP.
  - akerl_ 3y ago
    It's a workhorse. It operates at a decent resolution/FPS, as security cameras go, it can handle pretty much any weather conditions, and Axis will stand by it if it breaks. It also, relevantly for this thread, will do standard video transmission w/o any cloud/app components. Most camera you get that are cheaper are trading off in one or more of these areas to recoup cost.
- nominallyn 3y ago
  I'm thinking of running outdoor Axis cameras. Do you have any advice or links on how to route these safely, including grounding and surge protection? Mine will be mounting on the roof soffit.
  - jmuguy 3y ago
    If you're going to use PoE (you should) you can get in line surge protectors. Although to be honest - I've used PoE cameras for years, both in the home and professionally, and never bothered with these. I'm not sure what they're protecting against, unless you think lightning is going to strike the camera itself. Otherwise its just a single ethernet line from the camera to your switch, Axis cameras (and any others that support PoE and outdoor installs) have a nice shielded bit that the cable goes into at the camera end so its protected from the elements.
    - dboreham 3y ago
      I'd advise caution - lightning energy coupled onto a low voltage conductor can set fire to property and possibly harm people. Best to take a conservative approach if it's not your property and other people might be harmed. A direct strike is not necessary to have serious effects.
  - akerl_ 3y ago
    Maybe I'm just naive, but I've got 5 of them mounted externally. They're attached to in-wall rated CAT6 cable, but otherwise aren't grounded or surge protected. None of them are above 60% of the height of the walls they're mounted on, but even if I mounted them higher I'm not too worried.
bradfitz 3y ago
Another recommendation for Axis here. I've used dozens of them for almost 20 years now and they've been rock solid, technically and support-wise. But they're expensive. They do have cheaper models nowadays, though. In addition to explosion-proof ones: https://www.axis.com/en-us/products/explosion-protected-cameras https://www.axis.com/en-us/products/explosion-protected-came...
- EvanAnderson 3y ago
  Fun story re: the term "explosion-proof": I was given a tour of an industrial facility where conditions required explosion-proof equipment. The tour guide made a point of calling out the explosion-proof motors in one of the rooms. One of the other tour group members asked the question "Why would it matter if these motors survived an explosion?" I visualized the facility exploding in a fiery blaze and a motor, fully intact, tracing a high parabola into the sky and landing, unscathed, in the front yard of a house. The tour guide had to awkwardly answer: "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."
  - kayfox 3y ago
    > "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion." Another industry term for this is Intrinsically Safe.
    - Animats 3y ago
      They're not the same. Intrinsically Safe means it has too little energy in it to cause ignition. Explosion-proof can be achieved either by intrinsic safety or an enclosure capable of containing the worst that can happen inside it.[1] [1] https://blog.pruftechnik.com/intrinsically-safe-vs-explosion-proof/ https://blog.pruftechnik.com/intrinsically-safe-vs-explosion...
    - Graffur 3y ago
      TIL thanks
  - AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
EvanAnderson 3y ago
I'll throw out a word of support for both Geovision and Axis. My Geovision experience is also not current either. I've got three Customers using their cameras in isolated VLANs w/o Internet access. Both hardware and software reliability have been very good. Some of the outdoor units are coming up on 7 years old and still working fine. I think, in total, there are around 300 (mostly indoor) cameras in all their systems combined. I work at a site w/ >100 Axis cameras, also w/o Internet access. They're phenomenal devices-- built like tanks-- but very expensive. I particularly like that you get root on the cameras (which are running Linux). There are third-party applications that can run directly on the cameras.
bejd 3y ago
Can also recommend Axis. At work we've got a server with a couple hundred cameras connected and they're extremely reliable. Software is easy to use, regular firmware updates (even for older cameras), and in my few dealings with Axis support they've been great.
- binkHN 3y ago
  > ...regular firmware updates (even for older cameras)... Such a rarity nowadays--great to hear.
ce4 3y ago
Axis is cool, they once even had (still have?) their own CPU / ISA (ETRAX CRIS) plus a Linux port: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cris/README https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cris/README Edit: Official Linux support was removed with 4.17 in 2018 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/6/3/142 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/6/3/142
- kayfox 3y ago
  The ETRAX CRIS has been superseded by ARM Cortex-M in the latest ARTPEC (Axis Real Time Picture Encoder Chip) chips these days. For a period of time in between those two architectures the ARTPEC chips used MIPS as a core.
  - sebcat 3y ago
    Still used a bunch of CRIS cores for ARTPEC-6 for scheduling scaler and trfm jobs and some other things, are they completely gone now?
jsiepkes 3y ago
Can second the Axis recommendation. I've never had problems with them. You can also easily use them with other systems or without Internet.
unwind 3y ago
Classic nit pick triggered by at least some national tech pride: Axis Communications [1] is from Sweden. Founded in 1984, they are pretty cool. Edit: added missing word. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Communications https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Communications
Pr0ject217 3y ago
I did a fairly generic search for Geovision and landed on this: https://www.acronis.com/en-us/blog/posts/backdoor-wide-open-critical-vulnerabilities-uncovered-geovision/ https://www.acronis.com/en-us/blog/posts/backdoor-wide-open-... (not to fear-monger, just something to note)
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  > Acronis’ security team found four critical vulnerabilities in GeoVision's devices, including a backdoor password with admin privileges, the reuse of cryptographic keys, and the disclosure of private keys to everyone. All of these vulnerabilities could allow state-sponsored attackers to intercept potential traffic.
chaostheory 3y ago
Same background. I don’t have experience with Geovision, but Axis is rock solid with a great API. (Axis also led the ONVIF standard, but it’s no where near as nice as their own API which makes sense. Cisco’s dead standard was much better but DOA due to mismanagement) I think they’re still the industry leader too. The catch is that they are expensive and they’re mainly enterprise solutions
dheera 3y ago
RTSP streams never work, they always have several seconds of latency, and web browsers don't support them well if at all. Someone should invent a webcam that directly speaks WebRTC. Open a HTTPS connection and POST a SDP to get it started.
- LeFantome 3y ago
  What? ONVIF is RTSP under the hood. Literally the entire professional surveillance industry is based on RTSP.
  - dheera 3y ago
    Yeah it all sucks. I've tried just about everything. Massive latency. Enough for a bad guy to get away in many cases. I've seen even upwards of 30 seconds. We really need WebRTC. Badly.
thewebcount 3y ago
Christ on a cracker, Axis' website is horrible! I saw one model that looked interesting, but can't find a price. You have to click on "How to Buy" to get redirected to another page where you then have to click on "Find a Reseller Near Me" which takes you to a form you have to fill out with a bunch of personal information and then send to them, and maybe someone will get back to you. How do these companies stay in business?
- shostack 3y ago
  You aren't their target customer. Installers and resellers already know them or have a lower friction way to buy. They want you to work through resellers and not have to bother with supporting you directly.
- LordDragonfang 3y ago
  By selling mostly to business clients, where that sort of nonsense (no prices up front, contact for a quote) is more of a norm. Entities that are buying a dozen or dozens of cameras and other items to outfit a building, and plan on negotiating on volume.
  - cbzoiav 3y ago
    The price isn't listed because it depends on bulk, anticipated support and support contracts (ongoing revenue), anticipated future sales etc. If an independent shop wants 2 cameras you charge them enough to make a profit on the overhead of dealing with them (or point them to a retailer if they want less than a pallet). If Walmart want 2 cameras to try out you give them (or loan them) to them for free knowing if they like them you'll be shipping them by the pallet for years.
- l33tman 3y ago
  Axis doesn't sell to customers directly (not even to businesses), they sell exclusively to distributors that in turn sell to well-stocked online computer stores from where you can buy them like any other tech product
- starky 3y ago
atyppo 3y ago
Geovision has had a ton of security incidents. Perhaps they're easy to set up, but they definitely aren't secure.
- exhilaration 3y ago
  You shouldn't expose any of these cameras, high end or low end, to the internet. You shouldn't even trust them on the same VLAN as the rest of you computers or phones. That mitigates security issues.
  - EvanAnderson 3y ago
    To echo: In small installs I don’t give the cameras a default gateway and put a NIC (physical or virtual) in-subnet with the cameras. Nothing else goes in the subnet. In larger installs it’s a VRF dedicated to the camera subnets and a similar dedicated NIC arrangement on the server. Nothing should talk to the cameras except the recording server they’re streaming to.
    - angry_octet 3y ago
      And you should consider that the ethernet endpoint of each camera may be accessible, perhaps with only limited physical breakage, and provide an entry point onto the network. Having each device on its own /30 is one way to do that, with routing restricted to talking to the server, or you might have a private VLAN feature on your switch. You can have multicast from the cameras go to other devices though. Annoyingly, few TVs have multicast receivers, it's all Chromecast etc, so you need your own computers to decode and display.
reassembled 3y ago
I second the recommendation for Axis cameras. They have LAN only streaming options built in. You can find older used HD resolution Axis cams fairly inexpensively on eBay. They have a lot of different chassis/lens configurations and a lot model numbers so some research might be required to find the right camera configuration for your desired use case, especially if searching through the used market for models that have been discontinued by Axis.

vermilingua 3y ago

To add to this: search the catalog of whatever access control / electronic security wholesaler is local to your country. Almost all stock IP CCTV cameras and peripherals, and it's an easy way to get an idea of what manufacturers produce the cameras you need. Panasonic and Hikvision cameras are also quite good for a more reasonable price than Axis, but I'd agree with the above poster that they are the gold standard in IP CCTV.

akerl_ 3y ago

I can second this. I have several Axis M1065-LW cameras inside (running on wall plugs and wifi) and several Axis P1447-LE externally (running on PoE). Would recommend both of them. Notably, I had one exterior camera fail (wouldn’t run off PoE), and the Axis support/RMA process was smooth and fast.

kova12 3y ago
P1447-LE is sold for over $500 used. What is it that's inside of that camera, which makes it so pricey?!
- dboreham 3y ago
  The fact that someone will reply to your support email and fix bugs?
  - strunz 3y ago
    And not supply your video feed to the CCP.
- akerl_ 3y ago
  It's a workhorse. It operates at a decent resolution/FPS, as security cameras go, it can handle pretty much any weather conditions, and Axis will stand by it if it breaks. It also, relevantly for this thread, will do standard video transmission w/o any cloud/app components. Most camera you get that are cheaper are trading off in one or more of these areas to recoup cost.
nominallyn 3y ago
I'm thinking of running outdoor Axis cameras. Do you have any advice or links on how to route these safely, including grounding and surge protection? Mine will be mounting on the roof soffit.
- jmuguy 3y ago
  If you're going to use PoE (you should) you can get in line surge protectors. Although to be honest - I've used PoE cameras for years, both in the home and professionally, and never bothered with these. I'm not sure what they're protecting against, unless you think lightning is going to strike the camera itself. Otherwise its just a single ethernet line from the camera to your switch, Axis cameras (and any others that support PoE and outdoor installs) have a nice shielded bit that the cable goes into at the camera end so its protected from the elements.
  - dboreham 3y ago
    I'd advise caution - lightning energy coupled onto a low voltage conductor can set fire to property and possibly harm people. Best to take a conservative approach if it's not your property and other people might be harmed. A direct strike is not necessary to have serious effects.
- akerl_ 3y ago
  Maybe I'm just naive, but I've got 5 of them mounted externally. They're attached to in-wall rated CAT6 cable, but otherwise aren't grounded or surge protected. None of them are above 60% of the height of the walls they're mounted on, but even if I mounted them higher I'm not too worried.

bradfitz 3y ago

Another recommendation for Axis here. I've used dozens of them for almost 20 years now and they've been rock solid, technically and support-wise. But they're expensive. They do have cheaper models nowadays, though. In addition to explosion-proof ones: https://www.axis.com/en-us/products/explosion-protected-cameras https://www.axis.com/en-us/products/explosion-protected-came...

EvanAnderson 3y ago
Fun story re: the term "explosion-proof": I was given a tour of an industrial facility where conditions required explosion-proof equipment. The tour guide made a point of calling out the explosion-proof motors in one of the rooms. One of the other tour group members asked the question "Why would it matter if these motors survived an explosion?" I visualized the facility exploding in a fiery blaze and a motor, fully intact, tracing a high parabola into the sky and landing, unscathed, in the front yard of a house. The tour guide had to awkwardly answer: "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."
- kayfox 3y ago
  > "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion." Another industry term for this is Intrinsically Safe.
  - Animats 3y ago
    They're not the same. Intrinsically Safe means it has too little energy in it to cause ignition. Explosion-proof can be achieved either by intrinsic safety or an enclosure capable of containing the worst that can happen inside it.[1] [1] https://blog.pruftechnik.com/intrinsically-safe-vs-explosion-proof/ https://blog.pruftechnik.com/intrinsically-safe-vs-explosion...
  - Graffur 3y ago
    TIL thanks
- AdamJacobMuller 3y ago

EvanAnderson 3y ago

I'll throw out a word of support for both Geovision and Axis. My Geovision experience is also not current either. I've got three Customers using their cameras in isolated VLANs w/o Internet access. Both hardware and software reliability have been very good. Some of the outdoor units are coming up on 7 years old and still working fine. I think, in total, there are around 300 (mostly indoor) cameras in all their systems combined. I work at a site w/ >100 Axis cameras, also w/o Internet access. They're phenomenal devices-- built like tanks-- but very expensive. I particularly like that you get root on the cameras (which are running Linux). There are third-party applications that can run directly on the cameras.

bejd 3y ago

Can also recommend Axis. At work we've got a server with a couple hundred cameras connected and they're extremely reliable. Software is easy to use, regular firmware updates (even for older cameras), and in my few dealings with Axis support they've been great.

binkHN 3y ago
> ...regular firmware updates (even for older cameras)... Such a rarity nowadays--great to hear.

ce4 3y ago

Axis is cool, they once even had (still have?) their own CPU / ISA (ETRAX CRIS) plus a Linux port: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cris/README https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cris/README Edit: Official Linux support was removed with 4.17 in 2018 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/6/3/142 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/6/3/142

kayfox 3y ago
The ETRAX CRIS has been superseded by ARM Cortex-M in the latest ARTPEC (Axis Real Time Picture Encoder Chip) chips these days. For a period of time in between those two architectures the ARTPEC chips used MIPS as a core.
- sebcat 3y ago
  Still used a bunch of CRIS cores for ARTPEC-6 for scheduling scaler and trfm jobs and some other things, are they completely gone now?

jsiepkes 3y ago

Can second the Axis recommendation. I've never had problems with them. You can also easily use them with other systems or without Internet.

unwind 3y ago

Classic nit pick triggered by at least some national tech pride: Axis Communications [1] is from Sweden. Founded in 1984, they are pretty cool. Edit: added missing word. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Communications https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Communications

Pr0ject217 3y ago

I did a fairly generic search for Geovision and landed on this: https://www.acronis.com/en-us/blog/posts/backdoor-wide-open-critical-vulnerabilities-uncovered-geovision/ https://www.acronis.com/en-us/blog/posts/backdoor-wide-open-... (not to fear-monger, just something to note)

red-iron-pine 3y ago
> Acronis’ security team found four critical vulnerabilities in GeoVision's devices, including a backdoor password with admin privileges, the reuse of cryptographic keys, and the disclosure of private keys to everyone. All of these vulnerabilities could allow state-sponsored attackers to intercept potential traffic.

chaostheory 3y ago

Same background. I don’t have experience with Geovision, but Axis is rock solid with a great API. (Axis also led the ONVIF standard, but it’s no where near as nice as their own API which makes sense. Cisco’s dead standard was much better but DOA due to mismanagement) I think they’re still the industry leader too. The catch is that they are expensive and they’re mainly enterprise solutions

dheera 3y ago

RTSP streams never work, they always have several seconds of latency, and web browsers don't support them well if at all. Someone should invent a webcam that directly speaks WebRTC. Open a HTTPS connection and POST a SDP to get it started.

LeFantome 3y ago
What? ONVIF is RTSP under the hood. Literally the entire professional surveillance industry is based on RTSP.
- dheera 3y ago
  Yeah it all sucks. I've tried just about everything. Massive latency. Enough for a bad guy to get away in many cases. I've seen even upwards of 30 seconds. We really need WebRTC. Badly.

thewebcount 3y ago

Christ on a cracker, Axis' website is horrible! I saw one model that looked interesting, but can't find a price. You have to click on "How to Buy" to get redirected to another page where you then have to click on "Find a Reseller Near Me" which takes you to a form you have to fill out with a bunch of personal information and then send to them, and maybe someone will get back to you. How do these companies stay in business?

shostack 3y ago
You aren't their target customer. Installers and resellers already know them or have a lower friction way to buy. They want you to work through resellers and not have to bother with supporting you directly.
LordDragonfang 3y ago
By selling mostly to business clients, where that sort of nonsense (no prices up front, contact for a quote) is more of a norm. Entities that are buying a dozen or dozens of cameras and other items to outfit a building, and plan on negotiating on volume.
- cbzoiav 3y ago
  The price isn't listed because it depends on bulk, anticipated support and support contracts (ongoing revenue), anticipated future sales etc. If an independent shop wants 2 cameras you charge them enough to make a profit on the overhead of dealing with them (or point them to a retailer if they want less than a pallet). If Walmart want 2 cameras to try out you give them (or loan them) to them for free knowing if they like them you'll be shipping them by the pallet for years.
l33tman 3y ago
Axis doesn't sell to customers directly (not even to businesses), they sell exclusively to distributors that in turn sell to well-stocked online computer stores from where you can buy them like any other tech product
starky 3y ago

atyppo 3y ago

Geovision has had a ton of security incidents. Perhaps they're easy to set up, but they definitely aren't secure.

exhilaration 3y ago
You shouldn't expose any of these cameras, high end or low end, to the internet. You shouldn't even trust them on the same VLAN as the rest of you computers or phones. That mitigates security issues.
- EvanAnderson 3y ago
  To echo: In small installs I don’t give the cameras a default gateway and put a NIC (physical or virtual) in-subnet with the cameras. Nothing else goes in the subnet. In larger installs it’s a VRF dedicated to the camera subnets and a similar dedicated NIC arrangement on the server. Nothing should talk to the cameras except the recording server they’re streaming to.
  - angry_octet 3y ago
    And you should consider that the ethernet endpoint of each camera may be accessible, perhaps with only limited physical breakage, and provide an entry point onto the network. Having each device on its own /30 is one way to do that, with routing restricted to talking to the server, or you might have a private VLAN feature on your switch. You can have multicast from the cameras go to other devices though. Annoyingly, few TVs have multicast receivers, it's all Chromecast etc, so you need your own computers to decode and display.

reassembled 3y ago

I second the recommendation for Axis cameras. They have LAN only streaming options built in. You can find older used HD resolution Axis cams fairly inexpensively on eBay. They have a lot of different chassis/lens configurations and a lot model numbers so some research might be required to find the right camera configuration for your desired use case, especially if searching through the used market for models that have been discontinued by Axis.