4 ms·

No ARM option? Also, the battery compartment is tiny. Put the two together and I'm guessing this is not going to run for long. Love the idea though. If I ever

by Paul_S 3y ago

No ARM option? Also, the battery compartment is tiny. Put the two together and I'm guessing this is not going to run for long. Love the idea though. If I ever buy a laptop again it will be one of those.

danpalmer 3y ago
I don't think the hardware or software are mainstream enough to make it work yet sadly. There are ARM CPUs available, but they are mostly for servers or very low end devices, there's not a lot in the pro laptop market, and even if a low-end server chip could be repurposed, I don't know if the brand recognition would work, customers know AMD and Intel and what they're getting in terms of performance at different specs. That all works differently with ARM. And then on the software side, Windows support seems... partial? Linux support is much better, but selling a laptop with only Linux as an option is a big step down in available market, and even Linux struggles with compatibility sometimes. Apple's ARM chips are the only mainstream laptop/desktop class chips, but that's a completely distinct software and hardware ecosystem that neither Framework nor anyone else have access to.
- Paul_S 3y ago
  I didn't realise this was marketed to general public. Every distro and their dog supports arm. Anyway, I thought Windows runs on arm now? Although honestly, nowadays general public runs everything in a browser - why do they still need Windows?
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    This laptop is targeting the "pro-sumer" market. Framework aren't targeting the $500 price point, but they're definitely aiming to be mass market not require a computer science degree to use one. Distro support for ARM is good, but the state of packaging software on Linux isn't wonderful, it's certainly not something the average computer user could manage (hence why Linux for desktop/laptop use isn't popular outside of software engineering). ARM adds one more layer of complexity, and given that this is already difficult, that rules out more of the market. I gather Windows on ARM support is poor. The OS technically works, but a lot of software doesn't, and most software must run in emulation, which isn't great. MS announced more tooling for this at BUILD in March, but we're ~5 years in? and this is still going (macOS effectively fully transitioned in ~18 months). I think it's got a way to go before there aren't any obvious trade-offs for users. You're right most users probably don't need Windows, and something like a Chromebook would be more appropriate, and there are ARM Chromebooks. That's not the market for these laptops though, and the CPUs are much too low end for these machines.

by Paul_S 3y ago

danpalmer 3y ago

I don't think the hardware or software are mainstream enough to make it work yet sadly. There are ARM CPUs available, but they are mostly for servers or very low end devices, there's not a lot in the pro laptop market, and even if a low-end server chip could be repurposed, I don't know if the brand recognition would work, customers know AMD and Intel and what they're getting in terms of performance at different specs. That all works differently with ARM. And then on the software side, Windows support seems... partial? Linux support is much better, but selling a laptop with only Linux as an option is a big step down in available market, and even Linux struggles with compatibility sometimes. Apple's ARM chips are the only mainstream laptop/desktop class chips, but that's a completely distinct software and hardware ecosystem that neither Framework nor anyone else have access to.

Paul_S 3y ago
I didn't realise this was marketed to general public. Every distro and their dog supports arm. Anyway, I thought Windows runs on arm now? Although honestly, nowadays general public runs everything in a browser - why do they still need Windows?
- danpalmer 3y ago
  This laptop is targeting the "pro-sumer" market. Framework aren't targeting the $500 price point, but they're definitely aiming to be mass market not require a computer science degree to use one. Distro support for ARM is good, but the state of packaging software on Linux isn't wonderful, it's certainly not something the average computer user could manage (hence why Linux for desktop/laptop use isn't popular outside of software engineering). ARM adds one more layer of complexity, and given that this is already difficult, that rules out more of the market. I gather Windows on ARM support is poor. The OS technically works, but a lot of software doesn't, and most software must run in emulation, which isn't great. MS announced more tooling for this at BUILD in March, but we're ~5 years in? and this is still going (macOS effectively fully transitioned in ~18 months). I think it's got a way to go before there aren't any obvious trade-offs for users. You're right most users probably don't need Windows, and something like a Chromebook would be more appropriate, and there are ARM Chromebooks. That's not the market for these laptops though, and the CPUs are much too low end for these machines.