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> a much greater danger of moderated models reinforcing politically correct groupthink Where's the danger in that? For decades now, I've listened to people whi

> a much greater danger of moderated models reinforcing politically correct groupthink Where's the danger in that? For decades now, I've listened to people whine about "political correctness" trying to stir up some fear that it's coming for our favorite jokes or whatever, yet somehow it never arrives. Instead, what happens every time is that the "politically correct" stuff just ends up boring and bland and nobody engages with it. It has no cultural significance. The incessant complaining about "political correctness" is the deathcry of an older generation that no longer controls the hip lingo and must instead follow someones norms. Political correctness is not dangerous. It's just boring.

b800h 3y ago
The politically correct ground is the status-quo, and the status quo may very well be horribly wrong. I'd much rather people read ten diverse opinions on a subject and were challenged to make up their own minds, than be fed the party line and never have a chance to make a decision.
_xivi 3y ago
> For decades now, I've listened to people whine about "political correctness" trying to stir up some fear that it's coming for our favorite jokes or whatever, yet somehow it never arrives. It has already arrived and getting more and more strict over the years. Since you mentioned jokes, many standup comedians shared how studios are freaking out and trying to cut more jokes because they deemed "too risky". Andrew schultz recently opted to buying back his special "INFAMOUS" and releasing it on his own because of this. Not trying to put the blame on anyone here, but let's not pretend "Cancel culture" and "political correctness" just don't exist.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > Cancel culture Not a dig at you personally, but clichés like this amuse and annoy me in equal measure. I've just been reading about how in the 80s Marvel Comics didn't want any gay characters owing to public backlash, and the US armed forces instated "don't ask don't tell" not because they hated LGBT issues but because of a gay man getting "cancelled" from life; the Victorians were infamous for cancelling (with chisels) sexuality in ancient Roman and Greek statues, and also gay penguins when exploring Antarctica; Nelson Mandela was widely condemned as a terrorist; The USA has been trying to "cancel" Cuba since before the moon landings, and McCarthy tried to cancel random people with a list titled, essentially, "people I don't like who I can get away with calling commies"; The Catholic Church cancelled Galileo; The US government cancelled weed and LSD counter-culture, portraying it as devilishly destructive in much the same way that two generations earlier they had done with alcohol, and to much the same ultimate result; Henry VIII and immediate successors kept cancelling and counter-cancelling each other's religions. And of course the way the etymologically original "political correctness" was used to "cancel" undesirables with a one-way train ride to a gulag in Siberia; albeit my knowledge of that is 50% the way it ended up in the script in Babylon 5, and the other 50% from GCSE history… The point is not to say that society doesn't cancel things — it does, continuously, harshly, and I dislike the cancellations I've listed — but this is neither new nor one-sided. Other clichés I don't like: "Everything to the left of me is literally Stalinesque, unless it's gun controls then it's something only the Nazis would do" and use of the term "Liberals" as a slur to mean "anti-liberal" (yes I know the history, also that in the UK/US the badge "conservative" currently means "wants radical change").
ben_w 3y ago
> Political correctness is not dangerous. It's just boring. Caveat that this is a story I was told, one which sounded plausible but not something I can confirm. Racism led some to think that African Americans had lower IQ, and to use that belief as justification for treating everyone in that group worse. Political correctness said that any IQ test which gave this result must be racist, and should be disregarded. Meanwhile, as African Americans had less money and therefore lived in poorer areas, they were more likely to live in rooms covered in lead paint, to have water supplied in lead pipes, and to have older vehicles that (I'm not clear on the connection) something something more leaded fuel. Lead contamination reduces IQ. If the tests hadn't become a totem in that political contest, change could've come sooner. At least, assuming the story is true and not just convincing. I'm not even an American.
- thomashop 3y ago
  Sounds ridiculous. You need some sources to back that up. No access to equal education and poorer job chances are enough to cause problems many generations down the line. You don't need lead poisoning. Occams razor.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > You need some sources to back that up. Which part? Racists citing IQ tests? Lead lowering IQ scores? > No access to equal education and poorer job chances are enough to cause problems many generations down the line. Yes but not what I said; this was specifically about IQ tests not multi-generational inequality. > You don't need lead poisoning. Occams razor. Also true in reverse: lead poisoning is sufficient even without all the other inequities.
Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
> Where's the danger in that? For decades now, I've listened to people whine about "political correctness" trying to stir up some fear that it's coming for our favorite jokes or whatever, yet somehow it never arrives. What? Maybe it's country-specific, but at least in mine, a good portion of the jokes we used to tell in the 90s would be totally unacceptable now, and could only be told with really intimate friends. Whether that's good or bad is a different debate, but of course it has arrived.
vwwv 3y ago
plenty arguments here: https://skepticalinquirer.org/2023/06/the-ideological-subversion-of-biology/ https://skepticalinquirer.org/2023/06/the-ideological-subver...
CuriousSkeptic 3y ago
> Where's the danger in that? A really good book addressing that question. https://waitbutwhy.com/whatsourproblem https://waitbutwhy.com/whatsourproblem But basically the danger, it argues, is the end of democracy and perhaps civilisation it self. Argument being that when torches and pitchforks suppress our faculties for criticising the emperors new clothes our capacity to manage present and future crises are severely hampered. Which currently is a very bad timing for that.

b800h 3y ago

The politically correct ground is the status-quo, and the status quo may very well be horribly wrong. I'd much rather people read ten diverse opinions on a subject and were challenged to make up their own minds, than be fed the party line and never have a chance to make a decision.

_xivi 3y ago

> For decades now, I've listened to people whine about "political correctness" trying to stir up some fear that it's coming for our favorite jokes or whatever, yet somehow it never arrives. It has already arrived and getting more and more strict over the years. Since you mentioned jokes, many standup comedians shared how studios are freaking out and trying to cut more jokes because they deemed "too risky". Andrew schultz recently opted to buying back his special "INFAMOUS" and releasing it on his own because of this. Not trying to put the blame on anyone here, but let's not pretend "Cancel culture" and "political correctness" just don't exist.

ben_w 3y ago
> Cancel culture Not a dig at you personally, but clichés like this amuse and annoy me in equal measure. I've just been reading about how in the 80s Marvel Comics didn't want any gay characters owing to public backlash, and the US armed forces instated "don't ask don't tell" not because they hated LGBT issues but because of a gay man getting "cancelled" from life; the Victorians were infamous for cancelling (with chisels) sexuality in ancient Roman and Greek statues, and also gay penguins when exploring Antarctica; Nelson Mandela was widely condemned as a terrorist; The USA has been trying to "cancel" Cuba since before the moon landings, and McCarthy tried to cancel random people with a list titled, essentially, "people I don't like who I can get away with calling commies"; The Catholic Church cancelled Galileo; The US government cancelled weed and LSD counter-culture, portraying it as devilishly destructive in much the same way that two generations earlier they had done with alcohol, and to much the same ultimate result; Henry VIII and immediate successors kept cancelling and counter-cancelling each other's religions. And of course the way the etymologically original "political correctness" was used to "cancel" undesirables with a one-way train ride to a gulag in Siberia; albeit my knowledge of that is 50% the way it ended up in the script in Babylon 5, and the other 50% from GCSE history… The point is not to say that society doesn't cancel things — it does, continuously, harshly, and I dislike the cancellations I've listed — but this is neither new nor one-sided. Other clichés I don't like: "Everything to the left of me is literally Stalinesque, unless it's gun controls then it's something only the Nazis would do" and use of the term "Liberals" as a slur to mean "anti-liberal" (yes I know the history, also that in the UK/US the badge "conservative" currently means "wants radical change").

ben_w 3y ago

> Political correctness is not dangerous. It's just boring. Caveat that this is a story I was told, one which sounded plausible but not something I can confirm. Racism led some to think that African Americans had lower IQ, and to use that belief as justification for treating everyone in that group worse. Political correctness said that any IQ test which gave this result must be racist, and should be disregarded. Meanwhile, as African Americans had less money and therefore lived in poorer areas, they were more likely to live in rooms covered in lead paint, to have water supplied in lead pipes, and to have older vehicles that (I'm not clear on the connection) something something more leaded fuel. Lead contamination reduces IQ. If the tests hadn't become a totem in that political contest, change could've come sooner. At least, assuming the story is true and not just convincing. I'm not even an American.

thomashop 3y ago
Sounds ridiculous. You need some sources to back that up. No access to equal education and poorer job chances are enough to cause problems many generations down the line. You don't need lead poisoning. Occams razor.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > You need some sources to back that up. Which part? Racists citing IQ tests? Lead lowering IQ scores? > No access to equal education and poorer job chances are enough to cause problems many generations down the line. Yes but not what I said; this was specifically about IQ tests not multi-generational inequality. > You don't need lead poisoning. Occams razor. Also true in reverse: lead poisoning is sufficient even without all the other inequities.

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago

> Where's the danger in that? For decades now, I've listened to people whine about "political correctness" trying to stir up some fear that it's coming for our favorite jokes or whatever, yet somehow it never arrives. What? Maybe it's country-specific, but at least in mine, a good portion of the jokes we used to tell in the 90s would be totally unacceptable now, and could only be told with really intimate friends. Whether that's good or bad is a different debate, but of course it has arrived.

vwwv 3y ago

plenty arguments here: https://skepticalinquirer.org/2023/06/the-ideological-subversion-of-biology/ https://skepticalinquirer.org/2023/06/the-ideological-subver...

CuriousSkeptic 3y ago

> Where's the danger in that? A really good book addressing that question. https://waitbutwhy.com/whatsourproblem https://waitbutwhy.com/whatsourproblem But basically the danger, it argues, is the end of democracy and perhaps civilisation it self. Argument being that when torches and pitchforks suppress our faculties for criticising the emperors new clothes our capacity to manage present and future crises are severely hampered. Which currently is a very bad timing for that.