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>Tolstoy: ... "but having read one after the other, ..." Do not read Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote plays, not books. Shakespeare should be watched, either on

>Tolstoy: ... "but having read one after the other, ..." Do not read Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote plays, not books. Shakespeare should be watched, either on stage or on screen. Reading a Shakespeare play is like deciding to listen to the Beatles by downloading MIDI files and playing them through software. Maybe you get the broad strokes of the song, and maybe you even like it, but you're not listening to the Beatles.

idlewords 3y ago
You got Tolstoy pretty good there!
- mplanchard 3y ago
  I kind of agree with GP, but man did this make me laugh
granfalloon 3y ago
I never enjoyed Shakespeare UNTIL I started reading his plays, and now he’s one of my favorites. The drama and stories in his work don’t do much for me, I view them more as a vehicle for his poetry (which is some of the greatest ever written). And I enjoy it more on the page than spoken by others. I know there are at least some others out there like me! Nabokov cleverly said something along the lines of “with Shakespeare, the metaphor is the thing, not the play.”
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  Interesting. I also see the plays as vehicles for the poetry; but like a lot of poetry, it's made to be spoken aloud. In particular, it should be spoken as if it were prose - the metre is in the words, and comes through on its own. It's clunky to speak it as lines of verse.
  - dri_ft 3y ago
    Indeed it should be spoken aloud (or at least 'aloud in your head'). But if it should be spoken as if it were prose, why do you think he took all the trouble to put it in to verse?
    - denton-scratch 3y ago
      I'm neither a poet nor a playwright; I really don't know (but I'm glad he did). Prosody - the musical, rhythmic quality of speech - is emphasised in verse. If a sentence runs over one-and-a-half lines, you can speak it as a normal sentence, with no pause after the first line and a pause in the middle of the second; the song-like quality will still come through, but it becomes easier for an audience to make sense of. I think this applies to a lot of verse; not just Shakespeare's plays. If you read a sonnet like Ozymandias as a set of distinct lines, it sounds boring and stilted. If you speak it as a tale told by a traveller in a bar, it's much more engaging and exciting. The metre is carried by the words, they don't need help from the speaker. Some of the best political speeches have that kind of song-like rhythm, although they aren't verse. I'm thinking of e.g. Churchill, or the Gettysburg Address.
      - dri_ft 3y ago
        Well, I sort of agree. A halting, too-strongly-pushed, stopping-at-the-end-of-every-line reading doesn't exactly let the lines sing. But there is an art to reciting iambic pentameter whereby it can attain the naturalness of speech while still retaining that underlying rhythm. When it's done well, you might not even realise they're doing it - until your ear is attuned enough to pick it up. I really think this is a dying art, by the way. If you see a Shakespeare production, at least here in the UK, the actors older than about sixty are able to imbue the lines with that underpinning iambic rhythm; the younger actors don't know how or don't bother. For me, that means they don't really catch that song-like quality. I really think those older actors might be the last generation to properly know how to scan. >Some of the best political speeches have that kind of song-like rhythm, although they aren't verse. I'm thinking of e.g. Churchill, or the Gettysburg Address. Incidentally, somewhere I came across Arthur Quiller-Couch discussing this. He used as his example this speech of Edmund Burke, which he claimed achieved its power by means of hidden iambic pentameter: >The calculation of profit in all such wars is false. On balancing the account of such wars, ten thousand hogsheads of sugar are purchased at ten thousand times their price. The blood of man should never be shed but to redeem the blood of man. It is well shed for our family, for our friends, for our God, for our country, for our kind. The rest is vanity; the rest is crime. He points out that three fragments are actually iambic lines: >Are purchased at ten thousand times their price... >Be shed but to redeem the blood of man... >The rest is vanity; the rest is crime. Of course, this was in a time when the audience's ear (though perhaps not conscious mind) would be better attuned to that rhythm.
ojosilva 3y ago
Well, not really. The written play is the actual Work. Shakespeare put his soul into writing every word in it. They are his instructions, a script for eternity. It's like saying don't ever read the source, just use the app!
- mcmoor 3y ago
  I mean it's like reading Beethoven or Mozart's music sheet. Some people can appreciate its music just from reading that but most people can only know its geniuses when it's played.
- jovial_cavalier 3y ago
  No, what you're saying is "why ever run the app? you have the source code right there!"
btilly 3y ago
My wife has English as a second language, but speaks it far better than most native speakers. But she can't handle other dialects very easily. She likes Shakespeare when it is described, but as a play it is entirely impenetrable to her.
TomDavey 3y ago
Or, more starkly: "Reading a Shakespeare play is like listening to Beethoven by reading the score."

idlewords 3y ago

You got Tolstoy pretty good there!

mplanchard 3y ago
I kind of agree with GP, but man did this make me laugh

granfalloon 3y ago

I never enjoyed Shakespeare UNTIL I started reading his plays, and now he’s one of my favorites. The drama and stories in his work don’t do much for me, I view them more as a vehicle for his poetry (which is some of the greatest ever written). And I enjoy it more on the page than spoken by others. I know there are at least some others out there like me! Nabokov cleverly said something along the lines of “with Shakespeare, the metaphor is the thing, not the play.”

denton-scratch 3y ago
Interesting. I also see the plays as vehicles for the poetry; but like a lot of poetry, it's made to be spoken aloud. In particular, it should be spoken as if it were prose - the metre is in the words, and comes through on its own. It's clunky to speak it as lines of verse.
- dri_ft 3y ago
  Indeed it should be spoken aloud (or at least 'aloud in your head'). But if it should be spoken as if it were prose, why do you think he took all the trouble to put it in to verse?
  - denton-scratch 3y ago
    I'm neither a poet nor a playwright; I really don't know (but I'm glad he did). Prosody - the musical, rhythmic quality of speech - is emphasised in verse. If a sentence runs over one-and-a-half lines, you can speak it as a normal sentence, with no pause after the first line and a pause in the middle of the second; the song-like quality will still come through, but it becomes easier for an audience to make sense of. I think this applies to a lot of verse; not just Shakespeare's plays. If you read a sonnet like Ozymandias as a set of distinct lines, it sounds boring and stilted. If you speak it as a tale told by a traveller in a bar, it's much more engaging and exciting. The metre is carried by the words, they don't need help from the speaker. Some of the best political speeches have that kind of song-like rhythm, although they aren't verse. I'm thinking of e.g. Churchill, or the Gettysburg Address.
    - dri_ft 3y ago
      Well, I sort of agree. A halting, too-strongly-pushed, stopping-at-the-end-of-every-line reading doesn't exactly let the lines sing. But there is an art to reciting iambic pentameter whereby it can attain the naturalness of speech while still retaining that underlying rhythm. When it's done well, you might not even realise they're doing it - until your ear is attuned enough to pick it up. I really think this is a dying art, by the way. If you see a Shakespeare production, at least here in the UK, the actors older than about sixty are able to imbue the lines with that underpinning iambic rhythm; the younger actors don't know how or don't bother. For me, that means they don't really catch that song-like quality. I really think those older actors might be the last generation to properly know how to scan. >Some of the best political speeches have that kind of song-like rhythm, although they aren't verse. I'm thinking of e.g. Churchill, or the Gettysburg Address. Incidentally, somewhere I came across Arthur Quiller-Couch discussing this. He used as his example this speech of Edmund Burke, which he claimed achieved its power by means of hidden iambic pentameter: >The calculation of profit in all such wars is false. On balancing the account of such wars, ten thousand hogsheads of sugar are purchased at ten thousand times their price. The blood of man should never be shed but to redeem the blood of man. It is well shed for our family, for our friends, for our God, for our country, for our kind. The rest is vanity; the rest is crime. He points out that three fragments are actually iambic lines: >Are purchased at ten thousand times their price... >Be shed but to redeem the blood of man... >The rest is vanity; the rest is crime. Of course, this was in a time when the audience's ear (though perhaps not conscious mind) would be better attuned to that rhythm.

ojosilva 3y ago

Well, not really. The written play is the actual Work. Shakespeare put his soul into writing every word in it. They are his instructions, a script for eternity. It's like saying don't ever read the source, just use the app!

mcmoor 3y ago
I mean it's like reading Beethoven or Mozart's music sheet. Some people can appreciate its music just from reading that but most people can only know its geniuses when it's played.
jovial_cavalier 3y ago
No, what you're saying is "why ever run the app? you have the source code right there!"

btilly 3y ago

My wife has English as a second language, but speaks it far better than most native speakers. But she can't handle other dialects very easily. She likes Shakespeare when it is described, but as a play it is entirely impenetrable to her.

TomDavey 3y ago

Or, more starkly: "Reading a Shakespeare play is like listening to Beethoven by reading the score."