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This article definitely captures the general joy I get being able to work with the web. I understand it has its warts, but there's something really magical abou

This article definitely captures the general joy I get being able to work with the web. I understand it has its warts, but there's something really magical about having one ecosystem where you can so seamlessly play with user input, network requests, audio, graphics, and it can be shared or deployed on basically any consumer hardware. I recently have undertaken a little side project that at first I assumed I was going to need to pick up an Arduino and hack together some physical inputs, LEDs for an interface, and a speaker. It wasn't until I started shopping around for pieces and learning about the tech stack that I realized I could just take my old phone, pop open a browser, and prototype it that way. There's a lot of complaints that not everything should be in the browser, and that's very true for a lot of cases, but it's extremely empowering that anything _could_ be in the browser, at least for your MVP.

smohare 3y ago
What you’re describing sounds pretty much like any programming language.
- ajkjk 3y ago
  It really doesn't. It's much harder in every ecosystem except the web. Just shipping software to people at all is harder on every other platform, before even discussing how it's built.
  - progmetaldev 3y ago
    I completely agree, especially in terms of deployment and forced upgrades for bug fixes, or even software you don't want users to have anymore.
    - HenryMulligan 3y ago
      > software you don't want users to have anymore This is exactly why some don't want software essential to their business or personal life to be dependent on the whims of somebody and their server.
      - progmetaldev 3y ago
        I agree with what you're saying, but I meant more if the developers opened up an API a bit too much. They can close that up and make their client software more stable.
      - Sebb767 3y ago
        You can easily package your webapp with an integrated server or electron, if you don't want to provide a server. Or simply put it on the source code platform of your choice and let users figure out hosting on their own. Plus, you get all of that for (basically) free, at the same time with hardly any extra effort! The web really is the most versatile of platforms.
      - ajkjk 3y ago
        Well, fine, but from the developer's point of view dealing with obsolete versions is a nightmare. It's bearable if the software is offline only, but most isn't.
        lost_tourist 3y ago
        Then don't support obsolete versions?
        ajkjk 3y ago
        Exactly, what a nightmare! On the web there's just 'the one version' (notwithstanding people who leave the window open for weeks).
      - devjab 3y ago
        For businesses the two are rarely mutually exclusive depending. It’s obviously a little different for your personal life, because you’re going to have to spend resources to “self-host” but for a business those resources aren’t going to be too different from buying “classic” software. What we often do is to buy development, rather than buying a SaaS product. With the right setup, and this is easy to do with OSS as well, you can buy the development as needed from any of the software houses which specialise in this. You can then run things yourself, or buy the maintenance as well. This lets you control what happens with the software on the server and the server itself, and it’s frankly often a cheaper option than buying a SaaS solution for things that are vital to your business. At least in the long run. That being said, even with SaaS solutions you’re rarely at the “whims” or somebody and their server in enterprise SaaS solutions. I think Figma might be the only service we use where we’re at the “whims” of change that we aren’t able to control, and we do use quite a lot of SaaS software for things that are “less” important to us. As a private user you’re right though. You won’t be able to do those things. But the flip side is that you’re probably not going to find a lot of non web-solutions that don’t sort of work similar. Even with something like an e-mail client, you’re going to see updates, and you’re not going to be able to influence them anymore with a local program than you are with a web-based program. I guess you can continue to use an old version of something, but what then you’re using unsupported software, and eventually, you risk that it might not even run on your Operating System without massive amounts of efforts. Like, I have X-Com: Enemy Unknown on 3 floppy disks, even if I had something that could read floppy disks, I’m not sure how I’d even install it on windows 11 or my Mac.
  - aragilar 3y ago
    Some platforms seem to require a large amount of effort to ship on by design (iOS being an obvious example), but if by the "web" you mean client side (server-side I agree is easier, but at some level any system where most of the work is done remotely/outside user control is easier to work with than one where users have control), then the web has its own issues with shipping software (e.g. bundlers, API support), and lacks support for really digging into the device/platform (for good reasons). Depending on who you're targeting (in terms of both users and developers), the web may or may not be easier than "native" (e.g. R solves problems for users that the JS ecosystem can't solve).
jbandela1 3y ago
> there's something really magical about having one ecosystem where you can so seamlessly play with user input, network requests, audio, graphics, It seems that that was the experience Smalltalk was aiming for back in the 1980's with it's totally integrated development environments (integrated to the point that it was basically its own operating system). One could argue that the modern web browser with its integrated tooling for javascript is a reasonable modern interpretation for this. Note the similarities that the web-browser is almost its own operating system in this scenario as well
rg111 3y ago
I also got thid sense when I started learning to program. I moved towards ML later. I do no interaction with the web whatsoever other than a Flask web app once or twice a year for higher ups' pet projects. I want to feel the joy of web again as a hobby and maybe side projects. How do you think Phoenix will fit? I write programs in functional way and somewhat know Elixir. Do you recommend me learning Phoenix?
ankitg12 3y ago
> We could view my investigations of Cookie Clicker’s mechanisms as ‘basic research’, i.e., research without an immediate application in mind. > But perhaps the simplest way to view this episode was as a playful, recreational activity which through sheer dumb luck gave me the skills needed to solve an important problem in my work life. I see it capturing my joy of using GPT-4 on ChatGPT, with its cap of 25 messages every 3 hours. There's a joy in exhausting the limit for each session (may be that's what gamification is). Not able to do for full day, as got to sleep for >3 continuous hours, but exploring topics besides day to day work as a result :) Learning I am doing, how much useful - not sure.

smohare 3y ago

What you’re describing sounds pretty much like any programming language.

ajkjk 3y ago
It really doesn't. It's much harder in every ecosystem except the web. Just shipping software to people at all is harder on every other platform, before even discussing how it's built.
- progmetaldev 3y ago
  I completely agree, especially in terms of deployment and forced upgrades for bug fixes, or even software you don't want users to have anymore.
  - HenryMulligan 3y ago
    > software you don't want users to have anymore This is exactly why some don't want software essential to their business or personal life to be dependent on the whims of somebody and their server.
    - progmetaldev 3y ago
      I agree with what you're saying, but I meant more if the developers opened up an API a bit too much. They can close that up and make their client software more stable.
    - Sebb767 3y ago
      You can easily package your webapp with an integrated server or electron, if you don't want to provide a server. Or simply put it on the source code platform of your choice and let users figure out hosting on their own. Plus, you get all of that for (basically) free, at the same time with hardly any extra effort! The web really is the most versatile of platforms.
    - ajkjk 3y ago
      Well, fine, but from the developer's point of view dealing with obsolete versions is a nightmare. It's bearable if the software is offline only, but most isn't.
      - lost_tourist 3y ago
        Then don't support obsolete versions?
        ajkjk 3y ago
        Exactly, what a nightmare! On the web there's just 'the one version' (notwithstanding people who leave the window open for weeks).
    - devjab 3y ago
      For businesses the two are rarely mutually exclusive depending. It’s obviously a little different for your personal life, because you’re going to have to spend resources to “self-host” but for a business those resources aren’t going to be too different from buying “classic” software. What we often do is to buy development, rather than buying a SaaS product. With the right setup, and this is easy to do with OSS as well, you can buy the development as needed from any of the software houses which specialise in this. You can then run things yourself, or buy the maintenance as well. This lets you control what happens with the software on the server and the server itself, and it’s frankly often a cheaper option than buying a SaaS solution for things that are vital to your business. At least in the long run. That being said, even with SaaS solutions you’re rarely at the “whims” or somebody and their server in enterprise SaaS solutions. I think Figma might be the only service we use where we’re at the “whims” of change that we aren’t able to control, and we do use quite a lot of SaaS software for things that are “less” important to us. As a private user you’re right though. You won’t be able to do those things. But the flip side is that you’re probably not going to find a lot of non web-solutions that don’t sort of work similar. Even with something like an e-mail client, you’re going to see updates, and you’re not going to be able to influence them anymore with a local program than you are with a web-based program. I guess you can continue to use an old version of something, but what then you’re using unsupported software, and eventually, you risk that it might not even run on your Operating System without massive amounts of efforts. Like, I have X-Com: Enemy Unknown on 3 floppy disks, even if I had something that could read floppy disks, I’m not sure how I’d even install it on windows 11 or my Mac.
- aragilar 3y ago
  Some platforms seem to require a large amount of effort to ship on by design (iOS being an obvious example), but if by the "web" you mean client side (server-side I agree is easier, but at some level any system where most of the work is done remotely/outside user control is easier to work with than one where users have control), then the web has its own issues with shipping software (e.g. bundlers, API support), and lacks support for really digging into the device/platform (for good reasons). Depending on who you're targeting (in terms of both users and developers), the web may or may not be easier than "native" (e.g. R solves problems for users that the JS ecosystem can't solve).

jbandela1 3y ago

> there's something really magical about having one ecosystem where you can so seamlessly play with user input, network requests, audio, graphics, It seems that that was the experience Smalltalk was aiming for back in the 1980's with it's totally integrated development environments (integrated to the point that it was basically its own operating system). One could argue that the modern web browser with its integrated tooling for javascript is a reasonable modern interpretation for this. Note the similarities that the web-browser is almost its own operating system in this scenario as well

rg111 3y ago

I also got thid sense when I started learning to program. I moved towards ML later. I do no interaction with the web whatsoever other than a Flask web app once or twice a year for higher ups' pet projects. I want to feel the joy of web again as a hobby and maybe side projects. How do you think Phoenix will fit? I write programs in functional way and somewhat know Elixir. Do you recommend me learning Phoenix?

ankitg12 3y ago

> We could view my investigations of Cookie Clicker’s mechanisms as ‘basic research’, i.e., research without an immediate application in mind. > But perhaps the simplest way to view this episode was as a playful, recreational activity which through sheer dumb luck gave me the skills needed to solve an important problem in my work life. I see it capturing my joy of using GPT-4 on ChatGPT, with its cap of 25 messages every 3 hours. There's a joy in exhausting the limit for each session (may be that's what gamification is). Not able to do for full day, as got to sleep for >3 continuous hours, but exploring topics besides day to day work as a result :) Learning I am doing, how much useful - not sure.