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Currently whenever I think of Clojure I remember this post https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/a79aln/clojure_web_development_what_a_nightmare/ https://w

Currently whenever I think of Clojure I remember this post https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/a79aln/clojure_web_development_what_a_nightmare/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/a79aln/clojure_web... As far as I know the situation did not improve, I had high hopes for Clojure, but i think it will eventually be as forgotten as Groovy

Lyngbakr 3y ago
> How does someone who has never built a SPA before, let alone ever build a web application in Clojure/S suppose to get started? I think that Clojure for the Brave and True[0] is a good place to start for Clojure in general, while Web Development with Clojure: Build Large, Maintainable Web Applications Interactively[1] covers the web app side of things. [0] https://www.braveclojure.com/ https://www.braveclojure.com/ [1] https://pragprog.com/titles/dswdcloj3/web-development-with-clojure-third-edition/ https://pragprog.com/titles/dswdcloj3/web-development-with-c...
shaunxcode 3y ago
Aww yes the fiction of no friction: the funnel back to blub. The way is no way.
147 3y ago
I used to do Clojure professionally. I think the community’s disdain for frameworks really stunted Clojure’s adoption. Currently, I’m learning Elixir and Phoenix.
- jrvarela56 3y ago
  http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html Everything is pretty easy to build, so everyone rolls out their half-baked libraries.
BaculumMeumEst 3y ago
As a hosted lisp, it doesn’t take much to keep Clojure usable. I don’t think it will be forgotten, but the ship has sailed on becoming mainstream.
- ballpark 3y ago
  I'm not sure about that. Python was a good 20 years old when it became mainstream
tmountain 3y ago
Lisps have an uncanny way of staying alive for a long time. I think Clojure will continue to have a dedicated community around it for the foreseeable future, but it will always be niche.
phforms 3y ago
re-frame has a beautiful introduction that made the concepts crystal clear to me as someone who never used a state-management framework before: https://day8.github.io/re-frame/re-frame/ https://day8.github.io/re-frame/re-frame/ The API documentation lists the most commonly and rarely used parts before going into detail and there are many usage examples. Reagent has a nice intro tutorial (classic todo-app): http://reagent-project.github.io http://reagent-project.github.io and many other helpful tutorials and resources for beginners: https://cljdoc.org/d/reagent/reagent/1.2.0/doc/documentation-index https://cljdoc.org/d/reagent/reagent/1.2.0/doc/documentation... However, since Reagent is still stuck with class-components for more complex behavior and relies on Hiccup, which is nice but has a performance cost compared to pure React, I am unsure about its future. Like some others in the Clojure community, I have moved to thin React wrappers like Helix and use Refx to integrate those with re-frame. It may be a bit confusing right now for beginners since there is no “golden path”. Also, unfortunately, many smaller libraries are poorly documented and it seems like it is expected from the developer to dig into the source code to find out what’s going on. What I found the most difficult as a beginner was how to setup a project in ClojureScript in the first place, like all the configuration in shadow-cljs, how it interacts with deps.edn, how it integrates with npm, the REPL, etc. But dev/build config has always been a weak spot for me, so it might be just that. Overall, I still very much enjoy working with Clojure(Script), more than in any other language. Anyone who likes Lisps and functional programming should give it a try (and be sure to watch Rich Hickeys amazing talks!).
- SirensOfTitan 3y ago
  Check out uix too: https://github.com/pitch-io/uix https://github.com/pitch-io/uix …it’s a reagent alternative for modern react.
zilti 3y ago
Sorry, but if you've never built even as much as a "web application" (aka website), maybe learn the goddamn basics first before you try to completely overengineer a simple page as an SPA.
SirensOfTitan 3y ago
Clojure seems like it’s doing just fine: plenty of startups like Logseq and Penpot are built on Clojure. I think it’s just naturally limited because kids aren’t learning lisps in college anymore, but Python or Java instead. It takes a little effort to be able to read and work with lisps if you haven’t ever worked with one before. Clojure also adds functional paradigms on top, which folks are doubly not as primed with early in their careers. In my opinion, clojure is a great language for experienced teams, though it’ll never be python popular. Re-frame will handle the job in OP fairly well too.

Lyngbakr 3y ago

> How does someone who has never built a SPA before, let alone ever build a web application in Clojure/S suppose to get started? I think that Clojure for the Brave and True[0] is a good place to start for Clojure in general, while Web Development with Clojure: Build Large, Maintainable Web Applications Interactively[1] covers the web app side of things. [0] https://www.braveclojure.com/ https://www.braveclojure.com/ [1] https://pragprog.com/titles/dswdcloj3/web-development-with-clojure-third-edition/ https://pragprog.com/titles/dswdcloj3/web-development-with-c...

shaunxcode 3y ago

Aww yes the fiction of no friction: the funnel back to blub. The way is no way.

147 3y ago

I used to do Clojure professionally. I think the community’s disdain for frameworks really stunted Clojure’s adoption. Currently, I’m learning Elixir and Phoenix.

jrvarela56 3y ago
http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html Everything is pretty easy to build, so everyone rolls out their half-baked libraries.

BaculumMeumEst 3y ago

As a hosted lisp, it doesn’t take much to keep Clojure usable. I don’t think it will be forgotten, but the ship has sailed on becoming mainstream.

ballpark 3y ago
I'm not sure about that. Python was a good 20 years old when it became mainstream

tmountain 3y ago

Lisps have an uncanny way of staying alive for a long time. I think Clojure will continue to have a dedicated community around it for the foreseeable future, but it will always be niche.

phforms 3y ago

re-frame has a beautiful introduction that made the concepts crystal clear to me as someone who never used a state-management framework before: https://day8.github.io/re-frame/re-frame/ https://day8.github.io/re-frame/re-frame/ The API documentation lists the most commonly and rarely used parts before going into detail and there are many usage examples. Reagent has a nice intro tutorial (classic todo-app): http://reagent-project.github.io http://reagent-project.github.io and many other helpful tutorials and resources for beginners: https://cljdoc.org/d/reagent/reagent/1.2.0/doc/documentation-index https://cljdoc.org/d/reagent/reagent/1.2.0/doc/documentation... However, since Reagent is still stuck with class-components for more complex behavior and relies on Hiccup, which is nice but has a performance cost compared to pure React, I am unsure about its future. Like some others in the Clojure community, I have moved to thin React wrappers like Helix and use Refx to integrate those with re-frame. It may be a bit confusing right now for beginners since there is no “golden path”. Also, unfortunately, many smaller libraries are poorly documented and it seems like it is expected from the developer to dig into the source code to find out what’s going on. What I found the most difficult as a beginner was how to setup a project in ClojureScript in the first place, like all the configuration in shadow-cljs, how it interacts with deps.edn, how it integrates with npm, the REPL, etc. But dev/build config has always been a weak spot for me, so it might be just that. Overall, I still very much enjoy working with Clojure(Script), more than in any other language. Anyone who likes Lisps and functional programming should give it a try (and be sure to watch Rich Hickeys amazing talks!).

SirensOfTitan 3y ago
Check out uix too: https://github.com/pitch-io/uix https://github.com/pitch-io/uix …it’s a reagent alternative for modern react.

zilti 3y ago

Sorry, but if you've never built even as much as a "web application" (aka website), maybe learn the goddamn basics first before you try to completely overengineer a simple page as an SPA.

SirensOfTitan 3y ago

Clojure seems like it’s doing just fine: plenty of startups like Logseq and Penpot are built on Clojure. I think it’s just naturally limited because kids aren’t learning lisps in college anymore, but Python or Java instead. It takes a little effort to be able to read and work with lisps if you haven’t ever worked with one before. Clojure also adds functional paradigms on top, which folks are doubly not as primed with early in their careers. In my opinion, clojure is a great language for experienced teams, though it’ll never be python popular. Re-frame will handle the job in OP fairly well too.