10 ms·

This is a very USA centric view. In many European countries, freedom of attention is attained by having strong social support (eg free day care, education, hea

by j7ake 3y ago

This is a very USA centric view. In many European countries, freedom of attention is attained by having strong social support (eg free day care, education, health care, quality food, strong employment and tenant laws). Many people in Europe live without thinking about money 24/7 but are in absolute terms less rich than high paid people in nyc and sf.

carlosjobim 3y ago
People in Europe will plan their life around best exploiting government monetary benefits, so I'm not sure if I can really agree with your point. From things like deciding what month to get pregnant in order to maximize some welfare benefit, to entire businesses specializing in getting corporate welfare instead of actually producing anything, to farmers growing stuff they have no need for in order to get over a square meter threshold to increase their subsidy. I've had the misfortune of listening to hours upon hours of these boring conversations, with everyday people giving each other tips to get as much as possible from the government. Wether it's a financial benefit or the benefit of getting more days to stay at home on your couch and watch TV. Give me the American flavor of greed any day. At least some great ideas and some great stories come from it.
- nuancebydefault 3y ago
  I live and work in Europe, even in a country with one of the best corporate and government wellfare. It is true that a lot of people think about how to exploit the system regularly. That said, i am not one of them (at least not for a big amount), and a lot of people really enjoy being more relaxed about the possibility of getting ill or loosing a job, without fear of bankruptcy. This while liking their job and putting a lot of effort doing it well. So i guess some bias kicked in by having been surrounded by people of the former type...
- jxramos 3y ago
  that would be great to actually turn into an investigative documentary in video format. I'd be curious to get a taste of experiencing what you experienced.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    It's not terribly exciting, from the conversations of everyday people that I have had to listen to, some examples: A couple of house owners discussing putting solar heating on their roofs because the government launched a subsidy for it and one of them heard about it. With the subsidy the panels would start giving a modest return on the investment after an estimated 25 years. These people had no interest before in "green energy". A young wife being asked by her aunts when she's going to have kids. The answer: I have to finish my degree, then work for at least two years so I can qualify for the maximum benefits when I go off on maternity leave. In the context of getting that degree and job for that specific purpose. The most boring of all was listening to small business owners and their endless small time scheming with putting everything as a business expense to deduct on their taxes. I'm all for not paying a dime in taxes, but what kind of life do you end up having? So the above is just life, everyday life for everyday greedy people. That's why I wrote give me the American flavor of greed any day. That greed that goes into creating things like the high tech stuff discussed here on HN every day.
    - jxramos 3y ago
      Flavor of greed, I like that. This is an interesting form of market distortion of volition if you will where the confines of self interest take on somewhat strange shapes under specific directed ends and incentives offered by government programs. This is in contrast to unspecific non-directed open ended ends of a free(er) market economy letting self interest take on whatever shape it will unprovoked. I wonder if that open ended structure encourages or at least gets out of the way of people who do the creative value producing thing. Interesting thoughts about the mental path of least resistance and where the thoughts of a subpopulation find themselves when shaped and prodded in a certain direction.
- stubybubs 3y ago
  In America it's the corporations that do all this maximizing of government subsidies and regulations, only they get to write those regs themselves through regulatory capture. If you want subsidies, the US is only slightly behind the EU for farm subsidies. So you know. Same thing except all that money flows to the top, and the bottom still has to think about medical bankruptcy.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    Europe and America are not so different in all those things. Regulatory capture is alive and well on both continents. But there exists a kind of spirit and individualism and entrepreneurship in America that you hardly ever see in Europe. Fueled by greed for sure, but the greed of wanting to change the world and become a billionaire, instead of European small-time greed of wanting to buy some condos and let your children live on rent income. For all the good and bad, a service like Uber could never have been invented in Europe. I remember when it was accepted that taking a taxi was just for rich people.
- deterministic 3y ago
  Well I prefer to live in a democracy. The US stopped being a democracy a long time ago: “Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.” https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
throwaway22032 3y ago
As a Brit, I don't really understand the mindset that everyone is a mistake away from being penniless, to be honest. It feels mostly like a healthcare thing specific to the US. And it ignores the fact that most severe healthcare outcomes will ruin you in more ways than just the financial. Aside from healthcare, there are no real expenses I can think of that would suddenly "ruin my life". The two real examples I can think of are: - an uninsured house fire/collapse, mitigated by... insurance - severe mental illness / breakdown that results in spending my life savings Otherwise, it's like, ok, beyond age 21 I have at least a few months savings.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  There are thousands of homeless people out here who didn't understand that mindset either. Yet many became homeless because of one glitch, or perhaps a series of mistakes, that cascaded into a catastrophic failure. Once in 1997, I was living in a homeless shelter, and a TV reporter came to interview us. One of the residents went on camera to say "Every one of us who is living paycheck to paycheck just doesn't realize that we're one mistake away from losing it all." And that's the truth, because there are so many Americans who indeed live "paycheck to paycheck" without any building or planning for the future beyond next month. I've been homeless and I sure didn't anticipate it, but it was inevitable, the way I was mismanaging my finances, my relationships, my employment, and my housing. Last year I would've been ruined by medical debt if my father didn't swoop in to pay it all off. I was trying to do things the hard way; I went to the hospital about 5 times in 12 months, and they all hit me with enormous bills. I couldn't get coverage, I couldn't negotiate them, I was hardly aware of their existence at some points until they were sent to collections. Medical debt will well and truly ruin some of us around here, even if we're insured, because it's designed to be ruinous. Now into this mix you add some mental illness or executive dysfunction and we have a real crazy time dealing with paperwork and bills, much less holding down a job. One of the horrific things about hospitalization is that you're cut off from the outside world and you can't take care of your affairs. I would worry about paying my rent and bills. If those were late, there could be ruinous fees or the eviction process could begin. I could become homeless just for being hospitalized too long. Some of us have nobody "on the outside" to assist in these matters. The hospital won't give you a computer or cell phone or WiFi access. Most people would greatly benefit from both disability insurance and long-term care insurance. The latter is very expensive, but if you need long-term care then those costs are going to devour every penny you've saved anyway. So it's a good idea to front-load that and perhaps you'll pay less in the long run. Private disability insurance is great and can pay out cash when you need it the most. It really helps to be insured for these eventualities. I wish I could afford all of that.
jacobwilliamroy 3y ago
As a US citizen, I think about money all the time. What country do you think I should move to to escape this?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  Move to a country that is safe from external aggressors without help from the US while also not having these worries. That leaves a total of .... 0 countries.
  - vaidhy 3y ago
    To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger. yes, WW-3 might be right over the horizon and we all can be bombed out of extinction.. but the world has changed from middle ages.
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      > To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger. Kissinger said so, therefore it must be true. > but the world has changed from middle ages No one said the world is in the Middle Ages. But Europe always comes needing US support though.
- pistolpeteDK 3y ago
  If you can live with the high taxes, then scandinavia is nice. The social safety net makes money less important. Free health care is the big one. Not having to worry at all about hospital bills(ever) is a great relief.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnFen 3y ago
  "Money don't buy what you really need It make an ice man cry, it make a stone man bleed But when you get right down to it, no matter who you are It rules your life like a virgin queen One day you might get over it, but in the meantime It rules the world like a green machine" -- The Alan Parsons Project, "Money Talks" That truth is why I hate money.

by j7ake 3y ago

carlosjobim 3y ago

People in Europe will plan their life around best exploiting government monetary benefits, so I'm not sure if I can really agree with your point. From things like deciding what month to get pregnant in order to maximize some welfare benefit, to entire businesses specializing in getting corporate welfare instead of actually producing anything, to farmers growing stuff they have no need for in order to get over a square meter threshold to increase their subsidy. I've had the misfortune of listening to hours upon hours of these boring conversations, with everyday people giving each other tips to get as much as possible from the government. Wether it's a financial benefit or the benefit of getting more days to stay at home on your couch and watch TV. Give me the American flavor of greed any day. At least some great ideas and some great stories come from it.

nuancebydefault 3y ago
I live and work in Europe, even in a country with one of the best corporate and government wellfare. It is true that a lot of people think about how to exploit the system regularly. That said, i am not one of them (at least not for a big amount), and a lot of people really enjoy being more relaxed about the possibility of getting ill or loosing a job, without fear of bankruptcy. This while liking their job and putting a lot of effort doing it well. So i guess some bias kicked in by having been surrounded by people of the former type...
jxramos 3y ago
that would be great to actually turn into an investigative documentary in video format. I'd be curious to get a taste of experiencing what you experienced.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  It's not terribly exciting, from the conversations of everyday people that I have had to listen to, some examples: A couple of house owners discussing putting solar heating on their roofs because the government launched a subsidy for it and one of them heard about it. With the subsidy the panels would start giving a modest return on the investment after an estimated 25 years. These people had no interest before in "green energy". A young wife being asked by her aunts when she's going to have kids. The answer: I have to finish my degree, then work for at least two years so I can qualify for the maximum benefits when I go off on maternity leave. In the context of getting that degree and job for that specific purpose. The most boring of all was listening to small business owners and their endless small time scheming with putting everything as a business expense to deduct on their taxes. I'm all for not paying a dime in taxes, but what kind of life do you end up having? So the above is just life, everyday life for everyday greedy people. That's why I wrote give me the American flavor of greed any day. That greed that goes into creating things like the high tech stuff discussed here on HN every day.
  - jxramos 3y ago
    Flavor of greed, I like that. This is an interesting form of market distortion of volition if you will where the confines of self interest take on somewhat strange shapes under specific directed ends and incentives offered by government programs. This is in contrast to unspecific non-directed open ended ends of a free(er) market economy letting self interest take on whatever shape it will unprovoked. I wonder if that open ended structure encourages or at least gets out of the way of people who do the creative value producing thing. Interesting thoughts about the mental path of least resistance and where the thoughts of a subpopulation find themselves when shaped and prodded in a certain direction.
stubybubs 3y ago
In America it's the corporations that do all this maximizing of government subsidies and regulations, only they get to write those regs themselves through regulatory capture. If you want subsidies, the US is only slightly behind the EU for farm subsidies. So you know. Same thing except all that money flows to the top, and the bottom still has to think about medical bankruptcy.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Europe and America are not so different in all those things. Regulatory capture is alive and well on both continents. But there exists a kind of spirit and individualism and entrepreneurship in America that you hardly ever see in Europe. Fueled by greed for sure, but the greed of wanting to change the world and become a billionaire, instead of European small-time greed of wanting to buy some condos and let your children live on rent income. For all the good and bad, a service like Uber could never have been invented in Europe. I remember when it was accepted that taking a taxi was just for rich people.
deterministic 3y ago
Well I prefer to live in a democracy. The US stopped being a democracy a long time ago: “Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.” https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

throwaway22032 3y ago

As a Brit, I don't really understand the mindset that everyone is a mistake away from being penniless, to be honest. It feels mostly like a healthcare thing specific to the US. And it ignores the fact that most severe healthcare outcomes will ruin you in more ways than just the financial. Aside from healthcare, there are no real expenses I can think of that would suddenly "ruin my life". The two real examples I can think of are: - an uninsured house fire/collapse, mitigated by... insurance - severe mental illness / breakdown that results in spending my life savings Otherwise, it's like, ok, beyond age 21 I have at least a few months savings.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
There are thousands of homeless people out here who didn't understand that mindset either. Yet many became homeless because of one glitch, or perhaps a series of mistakes, that cascaded into a catastrophic failure. Once in 1997, I was living in a homeless shelter, and a TV reporter came to interview us. One of the residents went on camera to say "Every one of us who is living paycheck to paycheck just doesn't realize that we're one mistake away from losing it all." And that's the truth, because there are so many Americans who indeed live "paycheck to paycheck" without any building or planning for the future beyond next month. I've been homeless and I sure didn't anticipate it, but it was inevitable, the way I was mismanaging my finances, my relationships, my employment, and my housing. Last year I would've been ruined by medical debt if my father didn't swoop in to pay it all off. I was trying to do things the hard way; I went to the hospital about 5 times in 12 months, and they all hit me with enormous bills. I couldn't get coverage, I couldn't negotiate them, I was hardly aware of their existence at some points until they were sent to collections. Medical debt will well and truly ruin some of us around here, even if we're insured, because it's designed to be ruinous. Now into this mix you add some mental illness or executive dysfunction and we have a real crazy time dealing with paperwork and bills, much less holding down a job. One of the horrific things about hospitalization is that you're cut off from the outside world and you can't take care of your affairs. I would worry about paying my rent and bills. If those were late, there could be ruinous fees or the eviction process could begin. I could become homeless just for being hospitalized too long. Some of us have nobody "on the outside" to assist in these matters. The hospital won't give you a computer or cell phone or WiFi access. Most people would greatly benefit from both disability insurance and long-term care insurance. The latter is very expensive, but if you need long-term care then those costs are going to devour every penny you've saved anyway. So it's a good idea to front-load that and perhaps you'll pay less in the long run. Private disability insurance is great and can pay out cash when you need it the most. It really helps to be insured for these eventualities. I wish I could afford all of that.

jacobwilliamroy 3y ago

As a US citizen, I think about money all the time. What country do you think I should move to to escape this?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cscurmudgeon 3y ago
Move to a country that is safe from external aggressors without help from the US while also not having these worries. That leaves a total of .... 0 countries.
- vaidhy 3y ago
  To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger. yes, WW-3 might be right over the horizon and we all can be bombed out of extinction.. but the world has changed from middle ages.
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    > To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger. Kissinger said so, therefore it must be true. > but the world has changed from middle ages No one said the world is in the Middle Ages. But Europe always comes needing US support though.
pistolpeteDK 3y ago
If you can live with the high taxes, then scandinavia is nice. The social safety net makes money less important. Free health care is the big one. Not having to worry at all about hospital bills(ever) is a great relief.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
JohnFen 3y ago
"Money don't buy what you really need It make an ice man cry, it make a stone man bleed But when you get right down to it, no matter who you are It rules your life like a virgin queen One day you might get over it, but in the meantime It rules the world like a green machine" -- The Alan Parsons Project, "Money Talks" That truth is why I hate money.