5 ms·
I think people jump into "nepotism" too quickly and usually I find people who jump to that - to be not to be really negative but still - <losers>. Building and
by ozim 3y ago
I think people jump into "nepotism" too quickly and usually I find people who jump to that - to be not to be really negative but still - <losers>.
Building and keeping relationship *is work* even with your wife or kids it is not given. Building and keeping business relationship is even more work when you have to convince someone you don't know that you are worth something.
I call out nepotism only if you can clearly see someone is hired and does nothing or has no experience or skills for what they were hired for.
I got my friends/people I know hired to the company I work for, it was not walk in the park, I had to convince my friends that company is good place to work as they were highly skilled, which took me months ... guess what ... I had to spend also quite some time convincing managers that guy I propose will fit and then they still had to go through interviews and probation period.
From the outside or other employees perspective it might have looked like "X got Y into the company because they know each other and X is on good terms with management", they did not see how much work it was to "get good terms with management", they did not see how much legwork and checking up on my friends if they are available took.
- antod 3y ago> I got my friends/people I know hired to the company I work for, it was not walk in the park, I had to convince my friends that company is good place to work as they were highly skilled, which took me months ... guess what ... I had to spend also quite some time convincing managers that guy I propose will fit and then they still had to go through interviews and probation period. That sounds very far away from nepotism. Nepotism is giving relatives or friends the job without any qualifications and/or treating them different.
- ozim 3y agoThat is why I replied to parent poster. He wrote like it would be that getting business from someone you know is already sign of nepotism but there is more to it.
- polygamous_bat 3y agoThis comment reads like a classic "X-ism doesn't exist because Y people have it hard too!" No one is saying that Y does not have it hard. The claim about X-ism is that people with X never even had the chance that Y did. In your case, sure, someone worked hard to convince their boss to hire their friend, but the people who don't have those connection (i.e. because they are from marginalized backgrounds/different country) just don't have a single chance of being hired, regardless of how qualified they are.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago> In your case, sure, someone worked hard to convince their boss to hire their friend, but the people who don't have those connection (i.e. because they are from marginalized backgrounds/different country) just don't have a single chance of being hired, regardless of how qualified they are. This requires that every hire the boss ever made was based on an employee recommendation. That seems unlikely.
- wizzwizz4 3y agoRelax the hyperbole (e.g. s/don't have a single chance/have a much smaller chance/), and it no longer requires that.
- lliamander 3y ago> This comment reads like a classic "X-ism doesn't exist because Y people have it hard too!" The claim was not "nepotism doesn't exist". The claim was that "It isn't nepotism if the person hired through personal connections can actually do the job". Yes, people without personal connections have it harder, but the mere inequality exists does not mean the situation is unjust.
- comfypotato 3y agoIt’s really all opinion. I would say the system here is unjust. (Life’s not fair.)I wouldn’t say that the relationship-hires are morally wrong (if the person hired is qualified).
- zmgsabst 3y agoI think it’s interesting you emphasized “losers”, and even chose that word at all. What motivates you to disparage an entire group of people, because they (correctly, as you admit) point out that success doesn’t depend on the relevant talent but on socializing?
- strawhatguy 3y agoThe 'loser' comment wasn't the best choice, true. It's also interesting that you separated 'relevant talent' from 'socializing', as if socializing is ever not relevant. People do have to at least know about you, and that indeed is a skill on its own.
- ozim 3y agoI point out that success requires talent - I don't know how you read that differently. Most of the time losers claim that "if they would know the right people..." or point "he/she got a job only because they knew someone", well NO because knowing right people is only part of the work, one still needs to deliver and still needs to have relevant skills/talents.
- zmgsabst 3y agoYou’re calling people with the right skills/talent “losers” because they’re frustrated serendipity wasnt in their favor and they don’t also know the “right” people. The people you’re disparaging know that skills/talent are also part of the work, but they’ve done that part — the part under their control. They’re commenting on the part of it which isn’t… and as far as I can tell, you’re disparaging them because you’re lucky and they aren’t.
- vineyardmike 3y agoKnowing the wrong people doesn’t make you a loser. You should rethink your wording or qualify loser with “losing the chance to get hired at a certain place”. Not knowing ozim and not getting hired at their company doesn’t make you a loser.
- 3y ago
- hluska 3y agoYou’re trying not to be negative but they’re losers? If you’re going to start a comment like that everything better be bang on. Unfortunately, you seem to be saying that nepotism is wrong..unless you do it then it’s somehow fine because you’re “special”. What a low quality comment made even worse by the insult in the beginning.
- FrustratedMonky 3y agoHe has a point. People that are always calling out nepotism, or good looks, etc... typically also have an axe to grind and have some festering sour grapes. The situation outlined is true. It can take time to convince outsiders (friends), and time to convince insiders (the company, manager) that X and Y are a good fit. Hiring is not easy. Getting hired is not easy.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- citizenpaul 3y agoMy experienced is that people whom are hesitant to call out nepotism are usually direct or indirect beneficiaries of it.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago[flagged]
- devsegal 3y agoWow, I never knew HN downvotes could make a comment near impossible to read.
- FrustratedMonky 3y agoYeah. The negative feedback is curbing my responses. Almost like I am a neural-net (wet one), and I am receiving RLHF (downvoted), which is modifying my internal network weights on future responses.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- waboremo 3y agoI can understand why both your friends and the company struggled to respect your choices and required so much more legwork than normal, because man oh man you are quite bad with words!
- closeparen 3y agoTech is culturally obsessed with those Moneyball edge cases where the metrics totally contradict intuition, where someone is objectively brilliant but overlooked. And with their complements, incompetent but charismatic frauds. Those cases are certainly interesting, but I think it kind of elides the much more boring reality: relationships and reputations are earned, the most common way to be respected is to actually be good, and the vouching of other professionals who’ve seen your competence and character in a variety of situations over time is a much stronger signal than a few hours of systematized interviewing or testing.
- comfypotato 3y agoIt’s still an unjust system, and it’s worthwhile to aspire to a system that is truly fair. Technological advancement is ultimately the only way to achieve a fair system where “systematized interview or testing” works as well as a relationship.
- throwaway2037 3y agoThis is a great post. I never thought of describing "HN exceptionalism" like "Moneyball-ism". People love a good story over some cold, hard "facts".
- JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y agoSir, have you met a management consultant? Or an MBA? May I introduce you to my very respectable friends at Softbank?