7 ms·

> Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished, an ex girlfriend

> Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished, an ex girlfriend of his was harassed by "helpful" people Oh wow. I was undecided about the helpfulness of CoC as sometimes people in the project can become hostile, unstable or passive-aggressive. But this case is very bad. Seems like CoC opens up ways for character assassination, effectively becoming "rules for the harassment of the outgroup".

commandlinefan 3y ago
> CoC opens up ways for character assassination Has it ever been used in any other way?
- LexiMax 3y ago
  Are you asking if a set of rules used to outline acceptable conduct in project participation has ever been enforced in good faith? Because they have, and I guarantee you that you've been aware of such enforcement actions in the past.
  - Aerroon 3y ago
    But do you need a code of conduct to do that though?
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    I think it's a good case of visibility; nobody hears about the justified enforcement of a code of conduct, but the odd cases (like the Drupal dev, or Donglegate, or what have you) get tons of media attention and are used as references as to why codes of conduct are a bad thing.
    - LexiMax 3y ago
      Exactly. I don't keep a mental checklist in my head of every time someone has ever gotten kicked out of a project's social spaces for being a jerk, it's just a thing that happens and everybody moves on with their life. And it's not like I don't understand the baseline fear of bad-faith actors - I've been on the receiving end of a few myself, as have most of us. However, those fears never really led anywhere productive. What _was_ productive was going off on my own and building new things with people I actually enjoyed being around.
  - klipt 3y ago
    Maybe some are written better. GCC's says "no racism" which can be interpreted as allowing hatred of white people because under some academic definitions it's impossible to be racist against white people. Compare federal law which says "no racial discrimination" which clearly applies equally to all races. The federal law is written better.
jeffBM 3y ago
It is not something that automatically comes with a COC, they explicitly state it in theirs: "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them."
- godshatter 3y ago
  That's a big nope from me. The scope of the CoC should not extend beyond interactions in the confines of their project otherwise you get people digging up something people said when they were 12 or making value judgements based on their public lifestyle and trying to get them removed because of it. Pretty much the opposite of "inclusive".
  - ratmice 3y ago
    As a counterpoint, restricting the scope of the CoC to the confines of the project allows people to harass others directly, via DM's, email, etc with impunity. I am at least relieved by may in "violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." Which leaves open the interpretation of outside violations by whomever is adjudicating it so as not necessarily to apply to all instances of unwelcoming doormats which may be present on contributors homes. As such I feel like the wording on external interactions is pretty reasonable if interpreted in good faith.
  - iudqnolq 3y ago
    Then you get the ongoing debate in the C++ community about whether it's appropriate for someone with a criminal record of sexual abuse to have a trusted role at in person events.
    - mikecoles 3y ago
      It's never appropriate to trust someone confirmed to have sexually abused another. There's no debate.
      - iudqnolq 3y ago
redeeman 3y ago
i would also recommend you research who came up with and popularized the CoC that everyone uses, and what comments this person had about what would happen when popular projects adopt it. I wont tell you, as I dont want to be accused of putting words in anyones mouth, this will probably be downvoted, but go look it up yourself if you care. In general i'd say, it doesnt matter who brings information, only what the information is, given how extremely objectively poor the standard CoC is, I think it bears consideration here.
- logicprog 3y ago
  After a brief Google search, I think you're referring to Coraline Ada Ehmke, but I can't find anything problematic about her, what she's said, or her goals — unless you're referring to the fact that she's transgender and cares about social justice. Is that why you're being deliberately vague? Would you mind elaborating instead of vagueposting? What are your specific concerns? What is "extremely objectively poor" about the standard CoC?
  - redeeman 3y ago
    i couldnt possibly care that anyone is transgender or not, but i find the contributor covenant to be a ridiculous document, that feels the need to point out a whole slew of shit that you cant discriminate against. How about just say "cant discriminate" ? or perhaps "cant discriminate against anything non-technical" ? why do I need to read a long list of peoples ailments and problems in life? why does it have to be so complicated?
    - dgfitz 3y ago
      It doesn’t. At some point this pendulum has to swing back.
  - throw_m239339 3y ago
    > but I can't find anything problematic about her, They were literally _FIRED_ from Github because of a "problem" with a female coworker, allegedly. Github was like the "wokest" startup at that time, with diversity officers and what not before everybody else, after the sex harassment scandal... One can be oppressed because of their characteristic while still being oppressive toward others. edit: changed the wording.
rendaw 3y ago
If a project has toxic people in it, will a CoC make them into pleasant people? Will they drop all those people from the project after they adopt the CoC? What if it's the leadership that's toxic? If the leadership on the project wasn't toxic, why didn't they drop the toxic people earlier? What about a CoC helps them do it now?

commandlinefan 3y ago

> CoC opens up ways for character assassination Has it ever been used in any other way?

LexiMax 3y ago
Are you asking if a set of rules used to outline acceptable conduct in project participation has ever been enforced in good faith? Because they have, and I guarantee you that you've been aware of such enforcement actions in the past.
- Aerroon 3y ago
  But do you need a code of conduct to do that though?
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  I think it's a good case of visibility; nobody hears about the justified enforcement of a code of conduct, but the odd cases (like the Drupal dev, or Donglegate, or what have you) get tons of media attention and are used as references as to why codes of conduct are a bad thing.
  - LexiMax 3y ago
    Exactly. I don't keep a mental checklist in my head of every time someone has ever gotten kicked out of a project's social spaces for being a jerk, it's just a thing that happens and everybody moves on with their life. And it's not like I don't understand the baseline fear of bad-faith actors - I've been on the receiving end of a few myself, as have most of us. However, those fears never really led anywhere productive. What _was_ productive was going off on my own and building new things with people I actually enjoyed being around.
- klipt 3y ago
  Maybe some are written better. GCC's says "no racism" which can be interpreted as allowing hatred of white people because under some academic definitions it's impossible to be racist against white people. Compare federal law which says "no racial discrimination" which clearly applies equally to all races. The federal law is written better.

jeffBM 3y ago

It is not something that automatically comes with a COC, they explicitly state it in theirs: "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them."

godshatter 3y ago
That's a big nope from me. The scope of the CoC should not extend beyond interactions in the confines of their project otherwise you get people digging up something people said when they were 12 or making value judgements based on their public lifestyle and trying to get them removed because of it. Pretty much the opposite of "inclusive".
- ratmice 3y ago
  As a counterpoint, restricting the scope of the CoC to the confines of the project allows people to harass others directly, via DM's, email, etc with impunity. I am at least relieved by may in "violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." Which leaves open the interpretation of outside violations by whomever is adjudicating it so as not necessarily to apply to all instances of unwelcoming doormats which may be present on contributors homes. As such I feel like the wording on external interactions is pretty reasonable if interpreted in good faith.
- iudqnolq 3y ago
  Then you get the ongoing debate in the C++ community about whether it's appropriate for someone with a criminal record of sexual abuse to have a trusted role at in person events.
  - mikecoles 3y ago
    It's never appropriate to trust someone confirmed to have sexually abused another. There's no debate.
    - iudqnolq 3y ago

redeeman 3y ago

i would also recommend you research who came up with and popularized the CoC that everyone uses, and what comments this person had about what would happen when popular projects adopt it. I wont tell you, as I dont want to be accused of putting words in anyones mouth, this will probably be downvoted, but go look it up yourself if you care. In general i'd say, it doesnt matter who brings information, only what the information is, given how extremely objectively poor the standard CoC is, I think it bears consideration here.

logicprog 3y ago
After a brief Google search, I think you're referring to Coraline Ada Ehmke, but I can't find anything problematic about her, what she's said, or her goals — unless you're referring to the fact that she's transgender and cares about social justice. Is that why you're being deliberately vague? Would you mind elaborating instead of vagueposting? What are your specific concerns? What is "extremely objectively poor" about the standard CoC?
- redeeman 3y ago
  i couldnt possibly care that anyone is transgender or not, but i find the contributor covenant to be a ridiculous document, that feels the need to point out a whole slew of shit that you cant discriminate against. How about just say "cant discriminate" ? or perhaps "cant discriminate against anything non-technical" ? why do I need to read a long list of peoples ailments and problems in life? why does it have to be so complicated?
  - dgfitz 3y ago
    It doesn’t. At some point this pendulum has to swing back.
- throw_m239339 3y ago
  > but I can't find anything problematic about her, They were literally _FIRED_ from Github because of a "problem" with a female coworker, allegedly. Github was like the "wokest" startup at that time, with diversity officers and what not before everybody else, after the sex harassment scandal... One can be oppressed because of their characteristic while still being oppressive toward others. edit: changed the wording.

rendaw 3y ago

If a project has toxic people in it, will a CoC make them into pleasant people? Will they drop all those people from the project after they adopt the CoC? What if it's the leadership that's toxic? If the leadership on the project wasn't toxic, why didn't they drop the toxic people earlier? What about a CoC helps them do it now?