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How do you know the silent majority aren't in favor of CoCs?

LexiMax 3y ago
They don’t. I have been away from hacker news for about 2 to 3 years and quite frankly I am shocked that this place is still having this same tired argument whereas outside it seems to be an accepted fact of life that having rules surrounding the conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing.
- krona 3y ago
  > it seems to be an accepted fact of life Isn't that the problem? Accept it. Don't ask questions, or else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance
  - LexiMax 3y ago
    > Isn't that the problem? The problem is that the specific phrase "Code of Conduct" has been dragged into a culture war. And if the problem is the parlance, the solution is to just call it something different, like "Conduct Policy", "Rules", or something similar. It might seem trite, but in my experience using a different name seems to shut off the part of some folks brain who automatically assume said rules will be enforced in bad faith.
    - hajile 3y ago
      Your assertion here that a code of conduct could get dragged into a culture war directly contradicts your previous assertion that there is no war outside of HN. Rules getting enforced in bad faith as people coalesce power in their sphere is a story as old as human history. Why would you argue that we have an exception in this case?
      - LexiMax 3y ago
        > Your assertion here that a code of conduct could get dragged into a culture war directly contradicts your previous assertion that there is no war outside of HN. Whoops, ya got me! :) In all seriousness, there's no contradiction. The phrase "Code of Conduct" was part of a culture war, but in my experience the conversation outside of places like Hacker News has shifted significantly in recent years. Reading this thread was like stepping into a time machine, and not in a pleasant or nostalgic way.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  I don't know anything about your social circles, but my experience suggests that people learned to mostly ignore it until it happens to touch them. Until that point they just indicate their real thoughts in private groups. The argument repeats itself here, because the forum is pseudo-anonymous and lends itself to a 'private group' image despite not really being one. << conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing. Is it though?
- rgoulter 3y ago
  > outside it seems to be an accepted fact of life that having rules surrounding the conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing. I think this talks past concerns. "Just kick out the rude people" is probably a good thing. "Just kick out the people the admins don't like" is probably a bad thing (or at least isn't as impartial as the former). With sections like "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" it really seems the intention of the rules goes above/beyond "rules for the space where project participants communicate in".
  - LexiMax 3y ago
    > I think this talks past concerns. That is intentional, as I believe that these discussions attract rules lawyers who I feel are missing the point. If the people running the project enforce rules in bad faith, a CoC like the Contributors Code of Conduct is not materially different from an informal list of bullet-point rules, or even an tacit "Don't be a jerk."
commitpizza 3y ago
Well to be honest I don't. But I am guessing because it's stupid and meaningless and usually that won't prevail in the end. People may be tricked into it for a while but when they see the true power play that are in place they will quickly come to hate it.
thrw_aus 3y ago
The silent majority is too busy working to worry about issues that HR used to push down salaries 10 years ago.
hospitalJail 3y ago
Yep, people act like they want to treat everyone's work independent until some personal event comes up. I had to get attacked for a joke I put on social media before I realized how insane CoCs on voluntary work are.
- ozr 3y ago
  I don't mean to pick on you personally, but this is another time on this very same post where I've seen this expressed: > I was indifferent/supportive of CoCs until it was used against me over some trivial thing How can we avoid needing to get to that point?
  - omeid2 3y ago
    You simply can't. CoC's are charter for enforcing moral ideals in a context that none of it should matter. The whole CoC is a project of an ideology that is categorically against merit and competence and in favour of identity politics. To see these CoC's in terms of specific rules is missing the forest for the trees.
asylteltine 3y ago
Because you can gauge it by how many people complain vs how few people push it through. It’s a tiny minority of people who are zealots about a CoC which is why I intentionally exclude them from my project especially the absolute disaster covenant code of conduct made by a poser on a power trip

They don’t. I have been away from hacker news for about 2 to 3 years and quite frankly I am shocked that this place is still having this same tired argument whereas outside it seems to be an accepted fact of life that having rules surrounding the conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing.

krona 3y ago
> it seems to be an accepted fact of life Isn't that the problem? Accept it. Don't ask questions, or else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance
- LexiMax 3y ago
  > Isn't that the problem? The problem is that the specific phrase "Code of Conduct" has been dragged into a culture war. And if the problem is the parlance, the solution is to just call it something different, like "Conduct Policy", "Rules", or something similar. It might seem trite, but in my experience using a different name seems to shut off the part of some folks brain who automatically assume said rules will be enforced in bad faith.
  - hajile 3y ago
    Your assertion here that a code of conduct could get dragged into a culture war directly contradicts your previous assertion that there is no war outside of HN. Rules getting enforced in bad faith as people coalesce power in their sphere is a story as old as human history. Why would you argue that we have an exception in this case?
    - LexiMax 3y ago
      > Your assertion here that a code of conduct could get dragged into a culture war directly contradicts your previous assertion that there is no war outside of HN. Whoops, ya got me! :) In all seriousness, there's no contradiction. The phrase "Code of Conduct" was part of a culture war, but in my experience the conversation outside of places like Hacker News has shifted significantly in recent years. Reading this thread was like stepping into a time machine, and not in a pleasant or nostalgic way.
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
I don't know anything about your social circles, but my experience suggests that people learned to mostly ignore it until it happens to touch them. Until that point they just indicate their real thoughts in private groups. The argument repeats itself here, because the forum is pseudo-anonymous and lends itself to a 'private group' image despite not really being one. << conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing. Is it though?
rgoulter 3y ago
> outside it seems to be an accepted fact of life that having rules surrounding the conduct of project participants is in fact a good thing. I think this talks past concerns. "Just kick out the rude people" is probably a good thing. "Just kick out the people the admins don't like" is probably a bad thing (or at least isn't as impartial as the former). With sections like "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them" it really seems the intention of the rules goes above/beyond "rules for the space where project participants communicate in".
- LexiMax 3y ago
  > I think this talks past concerns. That is intentional, as I believe that these discussions attract rules lawyers who I feel are missing the point. If the people running the project enforce rules in bad faith, a CoC like the Contributors Code of Conduct is not materially different from an informal list of bullet-point rules, or even an tacit "Don't be a jerk."

commitpizza 3y ago

Well to be honest I don't. But I am guessing because it's stupid and meaningless and usually that won't prevail in the end. People may be tricked into it for a while but when they see the true power play that are in place they will quickly come to hate it.

thrw_aus 3y ago

The silent majority is too busy working to worry about issues that HR used to push down salaries 10 years ago.

hospitalJail 3y ago

Yep, people act like they want to treat everyone's work independent until some personal event comes up. I had to get attacked for a joke I put on social media before I realized how insane CoCs on voluntary work are.

ozr 3y ago
I don't mean to pick on you personally, but this is another time on this very same post where I've seen this expressed: > I was indifferent/supportive of CoCs until it was used against me over some trivial thing How can we avoid needing to get to that point?
- omeid2 3y ago
  You simply can't. CoC's are charter for enforcing moral ideals in a context that none of it should matter. The whole CoC is a project of an ideology that is categorically against merit and competence and in favour of identity politics. To see these CoC's in terms of specific rules is missing the forest for the trees.

asylteltine 3y ago

Because you can gauge it by how many people complain vs how few people push it through. It’s a tiny minority of people who are zealots about a CoC which is why I intentionally exclude them from my project especially the absolute disaster covenant code of conduct made by a poser on a power trip