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> But it is a reminder that any business operating in the EU at this scale must incorporate a data privacy specialist into their requirements gathering and revi

by hnbad 3y ago

> But it is a reminder that any business operating in the EU at this scale must incorporate a data privacy specialist into their requirements gathering and review processes. It's just the price of the ticket to play in the EU. This sounds very American. You don't need a data privacy specialist to operate in the EU. You need to develop with privacy first by design. Treat all PII as radioactive. Literally. Yes, if you need to bolt this onto existing US software to make it "compliant", you're screwed and you'll need to call in a containment team like when you find radioactive cargo in your business that is not normally expected to handle it. A lot of times topics like GDPR and privacy are brought up on HN I'm seeing comments that act like it's black magic. It really isn't. It's trivial to be "good enough" as far as legislation is concerned. The problem is just that over the past decades and especially in the US we've seen myriads of online services sprout up that now often seem integral but were built with a complete disregard for privacy and now need to either be retrofitted or somehow contained to become compliant. It's like finding out paint is radioactive after it has been marketed for decades with no regulation or oversight. Internet companies have been playing it fast and loose with privacy well past the point that people started pointing out it's a (ethical if not legal yet) problem. That is now coming back to bite them. I'm okay with that. It's just a shame so many businesses are caught in the crossfire because those companies have also tried their best to make themselves integral and unavoidable. Good luck trying to migrate away from AWS/Azure/GCP for example.

mbork_pl 3y ago
> It's trivial to be "good enough" as far as legislation is concerned. I'd be very interested to read any tutorials/howtos/faqs/etc. about that. I might be tempted to create a (very small) side SaaS-type project (and I'm located in Europe), and the main reason I haven't done it yet is that GDPR compliance looks really, really scary to me.
mozman 3y ago
Being compliant with regulations such as the GDPR is expensive. Lawyers, security, and annual third party testing. I don't profit off EU users so I block all non-USA traffic and avoid the issue entirely.
- ahoka 3y ago
  It’s like saying complying with criminal law is expensive because lawyers are expensive.
  - mozman 3y ago
    If you've been responsible for implementing GDPR compliance I think you may have a different perspective.
    - hnbad 3y ago
      It's like saying complying with truth in advertising laws is expensive: most companies barely have to think about it because they comply by default but for some companies it is extremely expensive. Of course it's extremely expensive for them because they're trying to get as close to breaking the law as they can without actually breaking it. That requires expensive lawyers, constant monitoring and extremely fast response cycles. E.g. there are a lot of big companies making good money of exaggerated but legal health claims and their claims are all not just vetted by a team of expensive lawyers but also documented and tracked in such a way that if they do end up getting sued they can immediately find out where they are using that particular claim and withdraw all advertising material using it to comply with a cease and desist. So, yes, if you want to run a business that is either intended to be willfully negligent for no good reason or exploit users with as little informed consent as you can get away with (likely because what you want to do is not in their best interest), you'll need a team of expensive lawyers. But compared to actual nuclear storage (which is highly regulated for good reasons), or storing certain financial data (which requires PCI compliance), or storing medical records (which in the US requires HIPAA compliance) or filing your taxes correctly, GDPR compliance does not actually require an expensive external audit and certainly not a regular one. Of course SOC2 compliance or ISO compliance are different matters and they may be involved in demonstrating GDPR compliance to business customers but they're neither necessary nor sufficient to comply with the GDPR or the ePrivacy directive.
- hnbad 3y ago
  Well, you could have had that for cheap: being US-based currently makes you non-compliant by default thanks to your government's warrantless surveillance (look up Privacy Shield and why it died). But, no, none of these things are required to be GDPR compliant. Of course if you want to build a business on processing PII (and especially if it's any of the protected categories, e.g. you want to process personally identifiable medical data) the GDPR requires more effort from you because it's harder to maintain your users' privacy while doing this. And if you actually have no business doing this but still need to find a way to coerce your users into surrendering their data against their own interests (e.g. behavioral analytics, insurance risk scoring, etc), it's even harder to do this in a compliant way and opens you up to more scrutiny (rightfully so, I might add). These things are not required to be compliant. These things may be involved in demonstrating compliance. But the lengths you have to go to to demonstrate compliance is very much a function of how privacy invasive your business is. A nuclear power plant will have more detailed radioactive waste management and radioactive material containment plans than a watch repair shop that occasionally handles radium-coated mechanical parts. Specifically, other companies may insist you go to greater lengths to demonstrate your compliance to them if they want to do business with you, the same way you don't just buy nuclear waste containment equipment from some guy on eBay. I did mean it literally when I said treat PII as radioactive.
nness 3y ago
Funnily enough, I work in technology in Europe and have consulted on GDPR compliance. Organisations either care a lot of about their data obligations and have dedicated teams and reviews, or simply don't care, and don't want that cost passed on to them. And service providers, not wanting to lose a sale, just go ahead with whatever is easier. In this case, they shot themselves in the foot by not conducting due diligence for what would have been a fairly easy to recognise issue. (or worse, were advised, and that advise was incorrect. But based on what I can translate in the original document, that is may not have been the case.)

by hnbad 3y ago

mbork_pl 3y ago

> It's trivial to be "good enough" as far as legislation is concerned. I'd be very interested to read any tutorials/howtos/faqs/etc. about that. I might be tempted to create a (very small) side SaaS-type project (and I'm located in Europe), and the main reason I haven't done it yet is that GDPR compliance looks really, really scary to me.

mozman 3y ago

Being compliant with regulations such as the GDPR is expensive. Lawyers, security, and annual third party testing. I don't profit off EU users so I block all non-USA traffic and avoid the issue entirely.

ahoka 3y ago
It’s like saying complying with criminal law is expensive because lawyers are expensive.
- mozman 3y ago
  If you've been responsible for implementing GDPR compliance I think you may have a different perspective.
  - hnbad 3y ago
    It's like saying complying with truth in advertising laws is expensive: most companies barely have to think about it because they comply by default but for some companies it is extremely expensive. Of course it's extremely expensive for them because they're trying to get as close to breaking the law as they can without actually breaking it. That requires expensive lawyers, constant monitoring and extremely fast response cycles. E.g. there are a lot of big companies making good money of exaggerated but legal health claims and their claims are all not just vetted by a team of expensive lawyers but also documented and tracked in such a way that if they do end up getting sued they can immediately find out where they are using that particular claim and withdraw all advertising material using it to comply with a cease and desist. So, yes, if you want to run a business that is either intended to be willfully negligent for no good reason or exploit users with as little informed consent as you can get away with (likely because what you want to do is not in their best interest), you'll need a team of expensive lawyers. But compared to actual nuclear storage (which is highly regulated for good reasons), or storing certain financial data (which requires PCI compliance), or storing medical records (which in the US requires HIPAA compliance) or filing your taxes correctly, GDPR compliance does not actually require an expensive external audit and certainly not a regular one. Of course SOC2 compliance or ISO compliance are different matters and they may be involved in demonstrating GDPR compliance to business customers but they're neither necessary nor sufficient to comply with the GDPR or the ePrivacy directive.
hnbad 3y ago
Well, you could have had that for cheap: being US-based currently makes you non-compliant by default thanks to your government's warrantless surveillance (look up Privacy Shield and why it died). But, no, none of these things are required to be GDPR compliant. Of course if you want to build a business on processing PII (and especially if it's any of the protected categories, e.g. you want to process personally identifiable medical data) the GDPR requires more effort from you because it's harder to maintain your users' privacy while doing this. And if you actually have no business doing this but still need to find a way to coerce your users into surrendering their data against their own interests (e.g. behavioral analytics, insurance risk scoring, etc), it's even harder to do this in a compliant way and opens you up to more scrutiny (rightfully so, I might add). These things are not required to be compliant. These things may be involved in demonstrating compliance. But the lengths you have to go to to demonstrate compliance is very much a function of how privacy invasive your business is. A nuclear power plant will have more detailed radioactive waste management and radioactive material containment plans than a watch repair shop that occasionally handles radium-coated mechanical parts. Specifically, other companies may insist you go to greater lengths to demonstrate your compliance to them if they want to do business with you, the same way you don't just buy nuclear waste containment equipment from some guy on eBay. I did mean it literally when I said treat PII as radioactive.

nness 3y ago

Funnily enough, I work in technology in Europe and have consulted on GDPR compliance. Organisations either care a lot of about their data obligations and have dedicated teams and reviews, or simply don't care, and don't want that cost passed on to them. And service providers, not wanting to lose a sale, just go ahead with whatever is easier. In this case, they shot themselves in the foot by not conducting due diligence for what would have been a fairly easy to recognise issue. (or worse, were advised, and that advise was incorrect. But based on what I can translate in the original document, that is may not have been the case.)