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Scripts descended from Egyptian hieroglyphs

28 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

richardjam73 3y ago
The next story I saw on this website was about a hidden underground civilisation underneath Antarctica. So for now I will take this with a grain of salt.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Based on a cursory look, it appears largely correct historically. Here are a few pointers on the evolution of the Latin and Brahmi scripts if you'd like to dig in more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latin_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latin_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script
  - KoftaBob 3y ago
    A super interesting example: - It is generally held that the Latins derived their alphabet (the very one we're using to write these comments!) from the Etruscan alphabet. - The Etruscan alphabet originated as an adaptation of the Euboean alphabet used by the Euboean Greeks in their first colonies in Italy - The Greek alphabet was originally based on the shared inventory of the 22 symbols of the Phoenician alphabet - Canaanites and/or Hyksos who spoke a Semitic language repurposed Egyptian hieroglyphs to construct what would become the Phoenician script.
    - nivertech 3y ago
      > - Canaanites and/or Hyksos who spoke a Semitic language repurposed Egyptian hieroglyphs to construct what would become the Phoenician script. - If they did it was via demotic script[1], Egyptian hieroglyphic writing of cursive form that was used in handwritten texts from the early 7th century BCE until the 5th century CE. - Phoenician and Ancient Hebrew (or Paleo-Hebrew / Proto-Hebrew) alphabets[2] are very similar if not the same. Talmud even calls it "Lebanon script". "The Paleo-Hebrew and Phoenician alphabets are two slight regional variants of the same script."[2] BTW: this is a well researched area, I'm just too lazy to find the relevant papers/books. But there are relatively good resources even on YouTube, but not necessarily in English. -- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demotic_(Egyptian) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demotic_(Egyptian) 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet
      - nivertech 3y ago
        oops, it seems that demotic script was developed 1000 years later than Hyksos period. So Hyksos is out, but these still might be Canaanites, or maybe there were earlier versions of rusive/handwriting script like demoitic. Each letter was developed from a logogram of Semitic word starting with the same letter in Semitic language, e.g. Alef - ox Bet - house Gimmel - camel Dalet - door etc.
- KoftaBob 3y ago
  I've seen this infographic many times before, and being a huge history buff, I've double checked a bunch of the alphabet/script progressions to see if wikipedia has sources confirming. As far as I can tell, it's pretty accurate.
- kps 3y ago
  The chart looks fine. I don't know all the scripts, so there could be a contentious arrow or two in it somewhere, but it's broadly correct. The alphabet (in the sense of a writing system that represents the language with a small fixed set of symbols representing sounds) appears to have been invented only once.
litver 3y ago
Letter "D" comes from "door" not from "fish". It's wrong Egyptian hieroglyph.
- litver 3y ago
  ok, I see that it probably comes from this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script where the "fish" ("dag") hieroglyph is used. However, this wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalet) refers to the "door" (delet) hieroglyph.
smitty1e 3y ago
I like how the tree begins at the root, at the bottom. Knuth talks about how the idea of representing a tree structure as a proper tree collided with the top-down style of reading. How we lay out symbols is as interesting as the symbols themselves.
KoftaBob 3y ago
One of my favorite fun facts that I learned because of this chart: So the Coptic script is the Egyptian language but written with Greek letters (plus 6 extra letters for sounds the Greek alphabet doesn't cover). What's particularly interesting is that the Greek alphabet itself was based on the Phoenician alphabet, which was in turn derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs. In other words, the final stage of the Egyptian language (before Arabic was introduced) was written with a Greek script that was originally descended from Egyptian hieroglyphs. Full circle!
AndrewDucker 3y ago
Taken from https://starkeycomics.com/2018/12/11/the-abcd-family-tree/ https://starkeycomics.com/2018/12/11/the-abcd-family-tree/ Which is a site that doesn't also spread conspiracy theories. Might be worth changing the link.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
What in the hell is up with the Georgian script? The "A" is about the only letter of theirs I can match with the sound it makes, and it sort of looks like an upside down question mark without the dot. That's definitely not right.
- retrac 3y ago
  The Georgian script is of uncertain origin. It's very old; at least 1600 years. It does seem to have influence from Greek. It was common for Christian missionaries to invent an alphabet for the language of the community they meant to convert. Usually based closely on the Greek, but sometimes only very loosely. Coptic (the descendant of spoken ancient Egyptian) got a modified Greek alphabet with some extra letters. Gothic (a Germanic language once spoken in southeast Europe) did as well. But the early Slavic languages got the [3] Glagolitic alphabet, which is much more divergent, though still Greek inspired. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_script https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_script [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_alphabet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_alphabet [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script
deleted 3y ago
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28 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

The next story I saw on this website was about a hidden underground civilisation underneath Antarctica. So for now I will take this with a grain of salt.

resolutebat 3y ago
Based on a cursory look, it appears largely correct historically. Here are a few pointers on the evolution of the Latin and Brahmi scripts if you'd like to dig in more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latin_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latin_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script
- KoftaBob 3y ago
  A super interesting example: - It is generally held that the Latins derived their alphabet (the very one we're using to write these comments!) from the Etruscan alphabet. - The Etruscan alphabet originated as an adaptation of the Euboean alphabet used by the Euboean Greeks in their first colonies in Italy - The Greek alphabet was originally based on the shared inventory of the 22 symbols of the Phoenician alphabet - Canaanites and/or Hyksos who spoke a Semitic language repurposed Egyptian hieroglyphs to construct what would become the Phoenician script.
  - nivertech 3y ago
    > - Canaanites and/or Hyksos who spoke a Semitic language repurposed Egyptian hieroglyphs to construct what would become the Phoenician script. - If they did it was via demotic script[1], Egyptian hieroglyphic writing of cursive form that was used in handwritten texts from the early 7th century BCE until the 5th century CE. - Phoenician and Ancient Hebrew (or Paleo-Hebrew / Proto-Hebrew) alphabets[2] are very similar if not the same. Talmud even calls it "Lebanon script". "The Paleo-Hebrew and Phoenician alphabets are two slight regional variants of the same script."[2] BTW: this is a well researched area, I'm just too lazy to find the relevant papers/books. But there are relatively good resources even on YouTube, but not necessarily in English. -- 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demotic_(Egyptian) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demotic_(Egyptian) 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet
    - nivertech 3y ago
      oops, it seems that demotic script was developed 1000 years later than Hyksos period. So Hyksos is out, but these still might be Canaanites, or maybe there were earlier versions of rusive/handwriting script like demoitic. Each letter was developed from a logogram of Semitic word starting with the same letter in Semitic language, e.g. Alef - ox Bet - house Gimmel - camel Dalet - door etc.
KoftaBob 3y ago
I've seen this infographic many times before, and being a huge history buff, I've double checked a bunch of the alphabet/script progressions to see if wikipedia has sources confirming. As far as I can tell, it's pretty accurate.
kps 3y ago
The chart looks fine. I don't know all the scripts, so there could be a contentious arrow or two in it somewhere, but it's broadly correct. The alphabet (in the sense of a writing system that represents the language with a small fixed set of symbols representing sounds) appears to have been invented only once.

litver 3y ago

Letter "D" comes from "door" not from "fish". It's wrong Egyptian hieroglyph.

litver 3y ago
ok, I see that it probably comes from this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script where the "fish" ("dag") hieroglyph is used. However, this wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalet) refers to the "door" (delet) hieroglyph.

smitty1e 3y ago

I like how the tree begins at the root, at the bottom. Knuth talks about how the idea of representing a tree structure as a proper tree collided with the top-down style of reading. How we lay out symbols is as interesting as the symbols themselves.

KoftaBob 3y ago

One of my favorite fun facts that I learned because of this chart: So the Coptic script is the Egyptian language but written with Greek letters (plus 6 extra letters for sounds the Greek alphabet doesn't cover). What's particularly interesting is that the Greek alphabet itself was based on the Phoenician alphabet, which was in turn derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs. In other words, the final stage of the Egyptian language (before Arabic was introduced) was written with a Greek script that was originally descended from Egyptian hieroglyphs. Full circle!

AndrewDucker 3y ago

Taken from https://starkeycomics.com/2018/12/11/the-abcd-family-tree/ https://starkeycomics.com/2018/12/11/the-abcd-family-tree/ Which is a site that doesn't also spread conspiracy theories. Might be worth changing the link.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

What in the hell is up with the Georgian script? The "A" is about the only letter of theirs I can match with the sound it makes, and it sort of looks like an upside down question mark without the dot. That's definitely not right.

retrac 3y ago
The Georgian script is of uncertain origin. It's very old; at least 1600 years. It does seem to have influence from Greek. It was common for Christian missionaries to invent an alphabet for the language of the community they meant to convert. Usually based closely on the Greek, but sometimes only very loosely. Coptic (the descendant of spoken ancient Egyptian) got a modified Greek alphabet with some extra letters. Gothic (a Germanic language once spoken in southeast Europe) did as well. But the early Slavic languages got the [3] Glagolitic alphabet, which is much more divergent, though still Greek inspired. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_script https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_script [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_alphabet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_alphabet [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script

deleted 3y ago

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