5 ms·

> And they are better at life than I am In my worldview, when you state that, you don't really believe that. If you did, you would do these things that you thi

by comboy 3y ago

> And they are better at life than I am In my worldview, when you state that, you don't really believe that. If you did, you would do these things that you think make them better with no effort. If you drop wishful thinking, look at the situation, then it's clear that if you think they are better at life, then the actions they do are better. But if you really believed that you would choose to do them, effortlessly. Now I know there's plenty of frameworks you can look at things through and plenty of rationalizations, I'm just presenting another one. So whenever you think it would be better if you would be doing something right now which you are not doing, you have some cognitive dissonance. It's possible to debug it. Sometimes it can go pretty deep, but if you are honest with yourself then after you do the debugging, you should either arrive at the conclusion that it is not better after all, or be doing it. We are able to hold tons of contradictory beliefs, but only if we don't bring them together to our attention. Then it's just impossible. Cheapest way to resolve these, which often appears automatically, is quick rationalization - creating a special case, "yes, but", "this is different" etc. But when you are honest with yourself and observe yourself, do some debugging, it's impossible to not be doing something you want to be doing (and vice versa). For me, it often means not that now I want to do these tasks and I'm going at them, rather, I understand that e.g. I think there are more important things in life to me given the wider context and I'm perfectly fine not doing them. I have not been doing anything I wouldn't want to be doing right now for years. I sometimes needed to question my very basic values and choices to debug it. Remember that it requires dropping wishful thinking. Wanting sky to be green is just madness, only after you accept that reality is how it is you can find out what you want. Anxiety can be debugged away. (Yes, I know - brains, neurotransmitters, amygdala, this is just a random dude's framework, a tool)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
noduerme 3y ago
I don't do things I don't want to do - I've also set my life and career up to prioritize that. Being overly accustomed to that mode may be part of the problem, because inevitably there are things you have to do that you don't want to do - and those things seem harder, even if they're trivial, when you really want to master your own time. Yet I'm pretty good at getting those out of the way. That's not my specific problem with phone calls. Phone calls always open up a Pandora's box of more problems. Perhaps if you feel like armchair diagnosing this: I clean my house almost obsessively every day; my desktop has only two text files on it called "Immediate" and "Todo"; my inbox is always cleaned out by 5 or 6pm before I let myself relax. Then I go get fucking wasted and make new friends and end up drinking in parking lots. But I can't call the fucking tree guy or the mechanic or the accountant. It's not the conversation I'm worried about. It's that I know there will be one new thing on the list. When the list is cleared, I will be free. I will take my clothes off and walk naked to the airport. [edit] I just want to clarify: I do think that I'm good at life in my own peculiar way. Just not "good at life" as most people would define it ;)
- comboy 3y ago
  Seems like you want to avoid calls if possible. If not then to me it helps to think in packages. So there is no "I need to make a phonecall". There's option A - "I make a phonecall and the then I have this" or "I don't make a phonecall and there are those consequences". What's the key to me here is that both options are perfectly fine. I.e. "suffering + some reward" or "no suffering and no reward". Or sometimes both options require some suffering. That is not a problem though, that is life. But suffering is really something different without anxiety. If it's unavoidable anyway there's a peace about it. And I'm sorry if I come off as an armchair diagnostician, I have no clue about your life obviously, it's just that this kind of thinking made such a big difference to me that it feels bad not sharing it.
  - noduerme 3y ago
    no, I think it's quite interesting to diagnose this from a code point of view... this is why it really sucks that I have literally no one in my life who writes code or understands my job (or can chop things up into logical if/else statements like this ;) I probably should look at my own messy internal call stack from this pov a bit more often. My best friend as a kid was raised in Zen Buddhism and we learned to code together. This is the kind of way he would look at it. So I appreciate it.
tjoff 3y ago
> If you did, you would do these things that you think make them better with no effort. There is a whole lot of assumptions in that sentence. To start, why would doing the right thing be effortless? Add to that, if you are in a bad state you are likely to be pessimistic of the outcome of the task which makes it even harder. And fighting that is anything but effortless. You could argue that when you are in a perfect state stars will align but even if you truly believe that the effort to get to that place will often be nothing but heroic and most people will never achieve it. So it just feels like moving the goalpost? Which is fine if framing it like that gets you closer to where you want to be. But I'd need more convincing to believe that would be easier (for me).
- noduerme 3y ago
  the underlying assumption is that there is no tension between satisfying the world and satisfying your own need for tranquility. [edit] I haven't done a lot of therapy, but I sought out an existential therapist in Buenos Aires and saw her weekly for a year while I was there and severely depressed. It helped me get over seeing myself as the center of the narrative, and made me realize everyone else was too trapped in theirs to notice most of the flaws I saw in myself. It also helped me come to terms with how the world being fucked up is neither my fault or something I can fix. But the real, true house on the cliff is unattainable. In the darkest and most honest moments, I'd admit it's not even what I want. As my ex's mother once said, I thrive on crisis. She didn't mean it well.
  - comboy 3y ago
    > To start, why would doing the right thing be effortless? Because doing things you want to do does not require effort. Real life example from the past - sewage system problem - I have shit all over the floor in my basement. It's late night next days are some celebrations. I can have this shit all over my floor it can wait for somebody to clean it, or it can just stay there, or I can clean it. You would think cleaning up shit is just that, it sucks regardless. But my experience is different. If you keep repeating to yourself false narration "I don't want to be doing this" that's hell. But after accepting the situation, deciding which option do you want, doing what you want to do is really effortless. Out of all the things this is what I want to be doing right now. If not, I'm not doing it. Narration matters a lot and it seems pretty straightforward that when you think you don't want to be doing the thing that YOU decided and are doing right now, you have some cognitive dissonance. (remember - no wishful thinking - thinking I want to have it clean but without doing any actions is no different than taunting yourself that you have no wings) > no tension between satisfying the world and satisfying your own need There isn't any. It's enough to try to satisfy your needs and doing what you want. But be observant and introspect. People who are perceived as egoists are not optimizing for their own well being. You can't be happy when you are surrounded by people who are not happy. When you want to support some charity and do something for the world, where does it come from? It's you, it's your need. It feels good. Not just a fleeting high, but like a feeling about your life in general. We seem to have that built in. I mean regardless of the source, just look how it's unnecessarily nested narration. Your needs vs needs of others, where needs of others is what you feel is needed to do for others. It's still your needs, if you think you should be helping others it's you who feels that.
escapedmoose 3y ago
How do you handle long-term tasks that are painful to do? Things that you don’t want to do in the moment, but which have a payoff you want?
- comboy 3y ago
  For some reason you want to do them. It's not like some dummy algorithm to decide what you do right now. What you want is a very complex computation which is basically already done and takes into account everything you know. There's no reason to try to outsmart yourself. If you are excited about the future associated with some task (or about the future in general) you are excited about doing the task. Some grim outlook on the future makes it rational to optimize short term results. E.g. sleep deprivation gives a glimpse of that. Basically seems pointless to fight with yourself. Maybe you don't really want the long-term task + result package. Or maybe wishful thinking is causing you to fantasize about getting a result without doing the task. (I'm sorry about using second person, seems most straightforward way to communicate it). I guess there's also some element of narration creating fictional character - e.g. I can't stop playing chess - playing chess is who I am. Which basically is daydreaming again. And btw it all sound pretty analytical but in practice is mostly value driven. But if necessary, I will debug the stack deeply. Honesty is required. It goes deep and into intimate places. I would leave my wife and kids if I wouldn't want to be with them (and I think that's best for everybody). Given that I do and want them to be happy a lot of stuff follows effortlessly. I think many people are afraid to question these deep assumptions. But it's worth doing it. Otherwise it's castles on sand. Back when I was starting with debugging I once deeply considered our marriage since I needed to take some trash out :))

by comboy 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

noduerme 3y ago

I don't do things I don't want to do - I've also set my life and career up to prioritize that. Being overly accustomed to that mode may be part of the problem, because inevitably there are things you have to do that you don't want to do - and those things seem harder, even if they're trivial, when you really want to master your own time. Yet I'm pretty good at getting those out of the way. That's not my specific problem with phone calls. Phone calls always open up a Pandora's box of more problems. Perhaps if you feel like armchair diagnosing this: I clean my house almost obsessively every day; my desktop has only two text files on it called "Immediate" and "Todo"; my inbox is always cleaned out by 5 or 6pm before I let myself relax. Then I go get fucking wasted and make new friends and end up drinking in parking lots. But I can't call the fucking tree guy or the mechanic or the accountant. It's not the conversation I'm worried about. It's that I know there will be one new thing on the list. When the list is cleared, I will be free. I will take my clothes off and walk naked to the airport. [edit] I just want to clarify: I do think that I'm good at life in my own peculiar way. Just not "good at life" as most people would define it ;)

comboy 3y ago
Seems like you want to avoid calls if possible. If not then to me it helps to think in packages. So there is no "I need to make a phonecall". There's option A - "I make a phonecall and the then I have this" or "I don't make a phonecall and there are those consequences". What's the key to me here is that both options are perfectly fine. I.e. "suffering + some reward" or "no suffering and no reward". Or sometimes both options require some suffering. That is not a problem though, that is life. But suffering is really something different without anxiety. If it's unavoidable anyway there's a peace about it. And I'm sorry if I come off as an armchair diagnostician, I have no clue about your life obviously, it's just that this kind of thinking made such a big difference to me that it feels bad not sharing it.
- noduerme 3y ago
  no, I think it's quite interesting to diagnose this from a code point of view... this is why it really sucks that I have literally no one in my life who writes code or understands my job (or can chop things up into logical if/else statements like this ;) I probably should look at my own messy internal call stack from this pov a bit more often. My best friend as a kid was raised in Zen Buddhism and we learned to code together. This is the kind of way he would look at it. So I appreciate it.

tjoff 3y ago

> If you did, you would do these things that you think make them better with no effort. There is a whole lot of assumptions in that sentence. To start, why would doing the right thing be effortless? Add to that, if you are in a bad state you are likely to be pessimistic of the outcome of the task which makes it even harder. And fighting that is anything but effortless. You could argue that when you are in a perfect state stars will align but even if you truly believe that the effort to get to that place will often be nothing but heroic and most people will never achieve it. So it just feels like moving the goalpost? Which is fine if framing it like that gets you closer to where you want to be. But I'd need more convincing to believe that would be easier (for me).

noduerme 3y ago
the underlying assumption is that there is no tension between satisfying the world and satisfying your own need for tranquility. [edit] I haven't done a lot of therapy, but I sought out an existential therapist in Buenos Aires and saw her weekly for a year while I was there and severely depressed. It helped me get over seeing myself as the center of the narrative, and made me realize everyone else was too trapped in theirs to notice most of the flaws I saw in myself. It also helped me come to terms with how the world being fucked up is neither my fault or something I can fix. But the real, true house on the cliff is unattainable. In the darkest and most honest moments, I'd admit it's not even what I want. As my ex's mother once said, I thrive on crisis. She didn't mean it well.
- comboy 3y ago
  > To start, why would doing the right thing be effortless? Because doing things you want to do does not require effort. Real life example from the past - sewage system problem - I have shit all over the floor in my basement. It's late night next days are some celebrations. I can have this shit all over my floor it can wait for somebody to clean it, or it can just stay there, or I can clean it. You would think cleaning up shit is just that, it sucks regardless. But my experience is different. If you keep repeating to yourself false narration "I don't want to be doing this" that's hell. But after accepting the situation, deciding which option do you want, doing what you want to do is really effortless. Out of all the things this is what I want to be doing right now. If not, I'm not doing it. Narration matters a lot and it seems pretty straightforward that when you think you don't want to be doing the thing that YOU decided and are doing right now, you have some cognitive dissonance. (remember - no wishful thinking - thinking I want to have it clean but without doing any actions is no different than taunting yourself that you have no wings) > no tension between satisfying the world and satisfying your own need There isn't any. It's enough to try to satisfy your needs and doing what you want. But be observant and introspect. People who are perceived as egoists are not optimizing for their own well being. You can't be happy when you are surrounded by people who are not happy. When you want to support some charity and do something for the world, where does it come from? It's you, it's your need. It feels good. Not just a fleeting high, but like a feeling about your life in general. We seem to have that built in. I mean regardless of the source, just look how it's unnecessarily nested narration. Your needs vs needs of others, where needs of others is what you feel is needed to do for others. It's still your needs, if you think you should be helping others it's you who feels that.

escapedmoose 3y ago

How do you handle long-term tasks that are painful to do? Things that you don’t want to do in the moment, but which have a payoff you want?

comboy 3y ago
For some reason you want to do them. It's not like some dummy algorithm to decide what you do right now. What you want is a very complex computation which is basically already done and takes into account everything you know. There's no reason to try to outsmart yourself. If you are excited about the future associated with some task (or about the future in general) you are excited about doing the task. Some grim outlook on the future makes it rational to optimize short term results. E.g. sleep deprivation gives a glimpse of that. Basically seems pointless to fight with yourself. Maybe you don't really want the long-term task + result package. Or maybe wishful thinking is causing you to fantasize about getting a result without doing the task. (I'm sorry about using second person, seems most straightforward way to communicate it). I guess there's also some element of narration creating fictional character - e.g. I can't stop playing chess - playing chess is who I am. Which basically is daydreaming again. And btw it all sound pretty analytical but in practice is mostly value driven. But if necessary, I will debug the stack deeply. Honesty is required. It goes deep and into intimate places. I would leave my wife and kids if I wouldn't want to be with them (and I think that's best for everybody). Given that I do and want them to be happy a lot of stuff follows effortlessly. I think many people are afraid to question these deep assumptions. But it's worth doing it. Otherwise it's castles on sand. Back when I was starting with debugging I once deeply considered our marriage since I needed to take some trash out :))