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> and is being prosecuted as passionately as self defence killings often are. Citation needed of self-defence killings im France being prosecuted passionately

• ohgodplsno 3y ago
  https://www.dalloz-actualite.fr/interview/vanessa-codaccioni-plus-de-90-des-affaires-de-legitime-defense-finissent-au-tribunal https://www.dalloz-actualite.fr/interview/vanessa-codaccioni... 90% of self defense cases end in the tribunal, meaning that the judges saw it as not-self-defense. The biggest factor in all this is proportionality: if you killed someone in self defense but were not yourself having your life threatened, you will go to court.
  • zirgs 3y ago
    Any physical assault is potentially life threatening. One unlucky fall on the pavement and that's it - you can easily die or become permanently disabled. Yet another reason why it's better to deescalate and/or run away if possible.
    • ohgodplsno 3y ago
      Yep, and this is the logic that is followed by judges: self defense is pretty much only valid if you had no other option. Run away. Always run away.
      • AmericanChopper 3y ago
        > self defense is pretty much only valid if you had no other option. Running away is a good idea for many reasons, but very few US states or foreign jurisdictions have a duty to retreat as you’re describing here.
        • ohgodplsno 3y ago
          Good thing this was in the context of France, then.
          • AmericanChopper 3y ago
            And France is among the overwhelming majority of legal jurisdictions around the world that do not have a duty to retreat. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006417218 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
• AmericanChopper 3y ago
  Macron recently said he was opposed to the entire concept of self defence, after a farmer shot a burglar in his home and was subsequently charged with murder. After that remark became massively controversial he attempted to walk his statement back and claim that he just meant that he said he was against the presumption of self defence (which seems to imply he supports a presumption of guilt in self defence cases). https://www.europe1.fr/politique/oppose-a-la-legitime-defense-lentourage-demmanuel-macron-corrige-le-propos-4103251 https://www.europe1.fr/politique/oppose-a-la-legitime-defens... Basically every country in the world that has somewhat stable law and order has a history of prosecuting dubious self defence cases. The requirement for the state to have a monopoly on violence might sound edgy, but it’s not a controversial idea, it’s a requirement for being able to enforce the law. Self defence is an almost universally justifiable reason for a person to violate the monopoly, and it’s not hard to understand why government agencies can end up viewing it as an existential threat, not to the country or its people, but to their own institutions.
  • zogrodea 3y ago
    I can corroborate (for any lurkers and onlookers) that the modern state having a monopoly on violence is an often-accepted idea. For example, this is professor Wael Hallaq of Columbia University describing some defining characteristics of the modern state: "there are five form-properties possessed by the modern state without which it cannot, at this point in history, be properly conceived. These are: (1) its constitution as a historical experience that is fairly specific and local; (2) its sovereignty and the metaphysics to which it has given rise; (3) its legislative monopoly and the related feature of monopoly over so-called legitimate violence; (4) its bureaucratic machinery; and (5) its cultural- hegemonic engagement in the social order, including its production of the national subject"
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]