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Does using a substance to temporarily make us feel various types of intoxication get us closer to answering "why am I here"? Wouldn't a sober study of the univ

Does using a substance to temporarily make us feel various types of intoxication get us closer to answering "why am I here"? Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective?

contingencies 3y ago
Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective? Once upon a time, people painted with oil paints as closely as they could to still life reality. But something was missing. Cue impressionism. After impressionism, an increasingly vanishingly small proportion of the art world tried to paint still life as an arts career and be taken seriously. The state of the art, quite simply, had moved on. And as it is with consciousness.
- jojobas 3y ago
  > After photography, an increasingly vanishingly small proportion of the art world tried to paint still life as an arts career and be taken seriously. FTFY
- Thorrez 3y ago
  Hmm. It seems to me that the switch from still life to impressionism was due to a change in the goal. With study vs drugs, the goal is still the same: find out why we're here. Since there isn't a goal change, it's not clear there should be a strategy change.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    The problem is the only reasons to suspect drugs can provide "insight" into "why we are here" arise from mysticism and other basically non-scientific things. How does making your brain work differently help us understand reality? Weed doesn't make the ruler more accurate or change size, it just makes you feel good.
- dottedmag 3y ago
  This is a circular argument: "X is not Y because it moved on. Why one says it has moved on? Because we see X is not Y anymore"
- Falkon1313 3y ago
  And so, then along came cameras. So now why should anyone bother with art at all, wouldn't sober photographs taken by cameras more effective at depicting reality? (No offense to photographers.) Not all of life is about being more effective and efficient all the time. Sometimes it's worthwhile to see things in a different way, and to open up new ideas.
  - contingencies 3y ago
    We are in agreement. Personally I went through a history phase, and photography phase, and a Wikipedia phase: now I'm doing watercolour. I find art history to be very interesting, but mostly only the generalities.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective? Our experience of consciousness is entirely our own. If we don’t vary it against a constant background, how do we know what sobriety even is? Put another way: is the “sober” view of a person with schizophrenic hallucinations truer than that after they’ve taken an antipsychotic?
- Thorrez 3y ago
  If the goal is to study how consciousness works, then yeah, drugs might be useful. But I'm not sure that's useful for answering the question of why we exist, why the universe exists.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > the goal is to study how consciousness works I’m not advocating for or against the use of mind-altering substances. But a scientist with two microscopes is going to have an edge over one who dogmatically subscribes to their one and only favourite. Even something as simple as observing the sky turns on knowledge of the failure of our neuro-optical pathways qua optical illusions.
    - bell-cot 3y ago
      The scientist whose second microscope has fun-house wonky lenses may only have an edge when it comes to discovering canals on Mars, researching N-rays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray), and similar.
      - n3v3r3v3r 3y ago
        Don't both of those things indirectly tell us a lot about our inherent biases? Seems to be _exactly_ the kind of insight that psychedelics offer
  - fidrelity 3y ago
    You are right if you believe there is an absolute answer that is true for everyone. If you are looking for an answer that makes sense in relation to your specific context, your life, your consciousness, then drugs might be useful.
jrflowers 3y ago
> Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective? What does “effective” mean in this context?
- Thorrez 3y ago
  Improving our ability to find the reason why we're here.
audunw 3y ago
That's like saying that only studying the universe with the frequencies of visible light will be more effective. It's probably the most effective, since we're biased towards being capable of analyzing data from those wavelengths, and the atmosphere is transparent to them. But why would that imply that we can't use tools that let us view how the universe looks with different wavelengths of light to effectively discover new things we otherwise wouldn't?
- Thorrez 3y ago
  Does doing a drug make us transformationally better at programming or doing science? If not, why would doing a drug make us transformationally better at finding the answer to why we're here? AFAICS, the only new thing we can learn about the universe by doing drugs is how our brain reacts to drugs.
mise_en_place 3y ago
Yes. If you don't want to use chemical substances, try fasting without water or food for large periods of time. Highly recommend The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley for you.
dougmwne 3y ago
I think it is largely a mirage. Certain drugs make us feel like we’ve “broken through” or “figured it all out”. We might write down these incredible insights, hoping to share them with the sober world as a kind of prophet. And the next day we read these words of truth, “Purple banana, awesome blofohga!”
- mistermann 3y ago
  That indeed might happen. Also, something else might happen. Each individual human doesn't know everything that happens, consciousness + culture just makes it look like they do, as demonstrated in numerous comments in this thread, and all other threads, on TV, in conversation, etc. Reality itself is composed of various mirages.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Eh, your brain is a lot more complicated than that. Your brain is the most powerful filter we've discovered in the universe. You can take immense amount of noise and separate information from it. The issue with these filters is most of the time you don't realize you have them. How you were raised, the people you're around, the culture you're in can all present bias filters that are impossible to see around since you don't even realize they exist. It may not be 'figuring it all out', but sometimes just having a filter lowered for a bit letting you realize there is another part of the world exists behind it can be a breakthrough.
- mindslight 3y ago
  That was kind of my initial reaction. Like the idea of "breaking through" seems to rely on there being some other coherent world to break through to, ie the basis of most of what we call religion. Which, at least to me, isn't particularly compelling. But on second thought, we certainly are experiencing some kind of phenomenon of consciousness, even if it's purely an emergent phenomenon of the physical world. And tweaking the experiencing of that consciousness will tend to expose the boundaries of it, even if just at the level of running a fuzzer on a C program or blowing up a balloon too far.
SpaceL10n 3y ago
Some substances help me ask that all important question in the first place. Waking up, brushing teeth, going to work, doing chores, raising kids, family time, rollerblading, gardening, studying... These activities don't help me ponder my existence with the same efficiency as some substances can offer. I mean, who has the time to ask these questions in the first place?! I'm reminded of a quote from the TV series "Weeds". A bit on the nose, I know, but when discussing peyote in the show, one character said, "It's like 30 years of psychotherapy in one night". In the real world, the scientific community's recent renaissance around the use of psychoactive drugs like psilocybin or MDMA in therapeutic settings is further proof that "substances" can be good.
- Thorrez 3y ago
  If someone doesn't have time to ask existential questions, then how does that person have time to do drugs? I guess your point is that psychoactive drugs can speed up thinking about these questions. I guess I could see that. It sounds a bit like how Adderall can speed up people's programming ability.
itomato 3y ago
Would a cup of coffee enhance your ability to get lofty with your thinking? Ginseng? Pure oxygen?
- Thorrez 3y ago
  Coffee benefits some people (I'm not sure it really provides me benefit though). But do psychedelic drugs help? If I want to write code, would a psychedelic drug help there? If not, why would a psychedelic drug help in finding why I exist?
  - itomato 3y ago
    Might it?
- jabradoodle 3y ago
  Certainly pure oxygen wouldn't as it is toxic to breathe.

Does using a substance to temporarily make us feel various types of intoxication get us closer to answering "why am I here"? Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective?

contingencies 3y ago

Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective? Once upon a time, people painted with oil paints as closely as they could to still life reality. But something was missing. Cue impressionism. After impressionism, an increasingly vanishingly small proportion of the art world tried to paint still life as an arts career and be taken seriously. The state of the art, quite simply, had moved on. And as it is with consciousness.

jojobas 3y ago
> After photography, an increasingly vanishingly small proportion of the art world tried to paint still life as an arts career and be taken seriously. FTFY
Thorrez 3y ago
Hmm. It seems to me that the switch from still life to impressionism was due to a change in the goal. With study vs drugs, the goal is still the same: find out why we're here. Since there isn't a goal change, it's not clear there should be a strategy change.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  The problem is the only reasons to suspect drugs can provide "insight" into "why we are here" arise from mysticism and other basically non-scientific things. How does making your brain work differently help us understand reality? Weed doesn't make the ruler more accurate or change size, it just makes you feel good.
dottedmag 3y ago
This is a circular argument: "X is not Y because it moved on. Why one says it has moved on? Because we see X is not Y anymore"
Falkon1313 3y ago
And so, then along came cameras. So now why should anyone bother with art at all, wouldn't sober photographs taken by cameras more effective at depicting reality? (No offense to photographers.) Not all of life is about being more effective and efficient all the time. Sometimes it's worthwhile to see things in a different way, and to open up new ideas.
- contingencies 3y ago
  We are in agreement. Personally I went through a history phase, and photography phase, and a Wikipedia phase: now I'm doing watercolour. I find art history to be very interesting, but mostly only the generalities.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective? Our experience of consciousness is entirely our own. If we don’t vary it against a constant background, how do we know what sobriety even is? Put another way: is the “sober” view of a person with schizophrenic hallucinations truer than that after they’ve taken an antipsychotic?

Thorrez 3y ago
If the goal is to study how consciousness works, then yeah, drugs might be useful. But I'm not sure that's useful for answering the question of why we exist, why the universe exists.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > the goal is to study how consciousness works I’m not advocating for or against the use of mind-altering substances. But a scientist with two microscopes is going to have an edge over one who dogmatically subscribes to their one and only favourite. Even something as simple as observing the sky turns on knowledge of the failure of our neuro-optical pathways qua optical illusions.
  - bell-cot 3y ago
    The scientist whose second microscope has fun-house wonky lenses may only have an edge when it comes to discovering canals on Mars, researching N-rays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray), and similar.
    - n3v3r3v3r 3y ago
      Don't both of those things indirectly tell us a lot about our inherent biases? Seems to be _exactly_ the kind of insight that psychedelics offer
- fidrelity 3y ago
  You are right if you believe there is an absolute answer that is true for everyone. If you are looking for an answer that makes sense in relation to your specific context, your life, your consciousness, then drugs might be useful.

jrflowers 3y ago

> Wouldn't a sober study of the universe and history be more effective? What does “effective” mean in this context?

Thorrez 3y ago
Improving our ability to find the reason why we're here.

audunw 3y ago

That's like saying that only studying the universe with the frequencies of visible light will be more effective. It's probably the most effective, since we're biased towards being capable of analyzing data from those wavelengths, and the atmosphere is transparent to them. But why would that imply that we can't use tools that let us view how the universe looks with different wavelengths of light to effectively discover new things we otherwise wouldn't?

Thorrez 3y ago
Does doing a drug make us transformationally better at programming or doing science? If not, why would doing a drug make us transformationally better at finding the answer to why we're here? AFAICS, the only new thing we can learn about the universe by doing drugs is how our brain reacts to drugs.

mise_en_place 3y ago

Yes. If you don't want to use chemical substances, try fasting without water or food for large periods of time. Highly recommend The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley for you.

dougmwne 3y ago

I think it is largely a mirage. Certain drugs make us feel like we’ve “broken through” or “figured it all out”. We might write down these incredible insights, hoping to share them with the sober world as a kind of prophet. And the next day we read these words of truth, “Purple banana, awesome blofohga!”

mistermann 3y ago
That indeed might happen. Also, something else might happen. Each individual human doesn't know everything that happens, consciousness + culture just makes it look like they do, as demonstrated in numerous comments in this thread, and all other threads, on TV, in conversation, etc. Reality itself is composed of various mirages.
pixl97 3y ago
Eh, your brain is a lot more complicated than that. Your brain is the most powerful filter we've discovered in the universe. You can take immense amount of noise and separate information from it. The issue with these filters is most of the time you don't realize you have them. How you were raised, the people you're around, the culture you're in can all present bias filters that are impossible to see around since you don't even realize they exist. It may not be 'figuring it all out', but sometimes just having a filter lowered for a bit letting you realize there is another part of the world exists behind it can be a breakthrough.
mindslight 3y ago
That was kind of my initial reaction. Like the idea of "breaking through" seems to rely on there being some other coherent world to break through to, ie the basis of most of what we call religion. Which, at least to me, isn't particularly compelling. But on second thought, we certainly are experiencing some kind of phenomenon of consciousness, even if it's purely an emergent phenomenon of the physical world. And tweaking the experiencing of that consciousness will tend to expose the boundaries of it, even if just at the level of running a fuzzer on a C program or blowing up a balloon too far.

SpaceL10n 3y ago

Some substances help me ask that all important question in the first place. Waking up, brushing teeth, going to work, doing chores, raising kids, family time, rollerblading, gardening, studying... These activities don't help me ponder my existence with the same efficiency as some substances can offer. I mean, who has the time to ask these questions in the first place?! I'm reminded of a quote from the TV series "Weeds". A bit on the nose, I know, but when discussing peyote in the show, one character said, "It's like 30 years of psychotherapy in one night". In the real world, the scientific community's recent renaissance around the use of psychoactive drugs like psilocybin or MDMA in therapeutic settings is further proof that "substances" can be good.

Thorrez 3y ago
If someone doesn't have time to ask existential questions, then how does that person have time to do drugs? I guess your point is that psychoactive drugs can speed up thinking about these questions. I guess I could see that. It sounds a bit like how Adderall can speed up people's programming ability.

itomato 3y ago

Would a cup of coffee enhance your ability to get lofty with your thinking? Ginseng? Pure oxygen?

Thorrez 3y ago
Coffee benefits some people (I'm not sure it really provides me benefit though). But do psychedelic drugs help? If I want to write code, would a psychedelic drug help there? If not, why would a psychedelic drug help in finding why I exist?
- itomato 3y ago
  Might it?
jabradoodle 3y ago
Certainly pure oxygen wouldn't as it is toxic to breathe.