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The monopoly on violence is the central component of the power of the state. This case undermines that power as much as violence used in self defence does, and

The monopoly on violence is the central component of the power of the state. This case undermines that power as much as violence used in self defence does, and is being prosecuted as passionately as self defence killings often are.

dredmorbius 3y ago
The monopoly is on the legitimate claim to force, and is based on Max Weber. David Runciman has an excellent explanation of this in the "Talking Politics" podcast which I recommend unreservedly: <https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership> (Specific segment occurs ~15 minutes in.)
- AmericanChopper 3y ago
  That podcast does have an interesting explanation of the idea, and Max Weber did provide interesting insights into it. But the governments exerting monopolistic control over violence (to differing levels at different times and places) goes back basically as far as organised society does. The legitimate claim to violence in self defence is just as ubiquitous and has always been at least philosophically at odds with the claim of the state. With that contention arise from the fact that a claim to violence in self defence must either arise from a failure of the state to perform its duties in upholding law and order, or a failure of the individual to follow the law. With the potential for controversy arising from the fact that it’s largely the state who gets to decide whether it was at fault, or if the individual in question was.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Again, you are excluding the critical phrase legitimate claim, which is at the heart of Weber's definition. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state, or an entity acting in the effective capacity of a state, whatever it happens to call itself. Absent this, one of three conditions exist: 1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state. 2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. 3. Some non-state power or agent assumes the monopoly on legitimate violence. In which case it becomes, by definition The State. You might want to consider what a "state" which lacks a monopoly on the legitimate claim to the monopoly on force would look like. To what other entity would it cede that legitimate claim, and/or how would it prevent other entities from enacting capricious violence, as has occurred from time to time in the world, and even now. The state's claim is to legitimacy. A capricious exercise would be an abrogation of legitimacy Weber, Max (1978). Roth, Guenther; Wittich, Claus (eds.). Economy and Society. Berkeley: U. California Press. p. 54. <https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mode/1up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mod...> The "monopoly on violence" or "monopoly on force" short-hands are a much more recent emergence, and seem to originate with Murray Rothbard (1960s) and Robert Nozick (1970s), though widespread usage of that phrase really only begins to take off after 1980, per Google's Ngram Viewer: <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=monopoly+on+violence%2C+monopoly+on+force&year_start=1819&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=monopoly+on+vi...> That shorthand has become quite popular, and is often cited by Libertarians as key to their adopting that particular ideology.[1] As expressed by them the formulation is both incorrect and misleading. ________________________________ Notes: 1. E.g., Penn Jillette, <https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertarian-453565 https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertaria...> and Charles Koch <https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertarian-453565 https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertaria...>.
    - AmericanChopper 3y ago
      I think you’re really putting the kart before the horse here. It’s certainly not true that no legitimate governments existed prior to the 20th century, regardless of what particular phrases may be been invented to describe them during that time. Just like gravity existed long before Newton managed to come up with a sensible description of it. You also almost get to describing the actual reality of the situation, but not quite, which is that a monopoly on violence and a state are the same thing. All states emerged when some group attempted to assert a monopoly over violence, and whether they fail or succeed in becoming a state comes down to their ability to monopolise violence. The status of legitimacy here is entirely subjective, and if it’s called into question, the only way it’s ever falsified is if some other group successfully challenges that monopoly.
midoridensha 3y ago
Well this isn't the first time in recent history the French government was a supporter of genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_and_the_Rwandan_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_and_the_Rwandan_genocid...
- realusername 3y ago
  France did not support the genocide, they just didn't do much at all apart from accepting refugies, also confirmed by more recent declassified papers.
sofixa 3y ago
> and is being prosecuted as passionately as self defence killings often are. Citation needed of self-defence killings im France being prosecuted passionately and unfairly.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  https://www.dalloz-actualite.fr/interview/vanessa-codaccioni-plus-de-90-des-affaires-de-legitime-defense-finissent-au-tribunal https://www.dalloz-actualite.fr/interview/vanessa-codaccioni... 90% of self defense cases end in the tribunal, meaning that the judges saw it as not-self-defense. The biggest factor in all this is proportionality: if you killed someone in self defense but were not yourself having your life threatened, you will go to court.
  - zirgs 3y ago
    Any physical assault is potentially life threatening. One unlucky fall on the pavement and that's it - you can easily die or become permanently disabled. Yet another reason why it's better to deescalate and/or run away if possible.
    - ohgodplsno 3y ago
      Yep, and this is the logic that is followed by judges: self defense is pretty much only valid if you had no other option. Run away. Always run away.
      - AmericanChopper 3y ago
        > self defense is pretty much only valid if you had no other option. Running away is a good idea for many reasons, but very few US states or foreign jurisdictions have a duty to retreat as you’re describing here.
        ohgodplsno 3y ago
        Good thing this was in the context of France, then.

dredmorbius 3y ago

The monopoly is on the legitimate claim to force, and is based on Max Weber. David Runciman has an excellent explanation of this in the "Talking Politics" podcast which I recommend unreservedly: <https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership> (Specific segment occurs ~15 minutes in.)

AmericanChopper 3y ago
That podcast does have an interesting explanation of the idea, and Max Weber did provide interesting insights into it. But the governments exerting monopolistic control over violence (to differing levels at different times and places) goes back basically as far as organised society does. The legitimate claim to violence in self defence is just as ubiquitous and has always been at least philosophically at odds with the claim of the state. With that contention arise from the fact that a claim to violence in self defence must either arise from a failure of the state to perform its duties in upholding law and order, or a failure of the individual to follow the law. With the potential for controversy arising from the fact that it’s largely the state who gets to decide whether it was at fault, or if the individual in question was.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Again, you are excluding the critical phrase legitimate claim, which is at the heart of Weber's definition. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state, or an entity acting in the effective capacity of a state, whatever it happens to call itself. Absent this, one of three conditions exist: 1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state. 2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. 3. Some non-state power or agent assumes the monopoly on legitimate violence. In which case it becomes, by definition The State. You might want to consider what a "state" which lacks a monopoly on the legitimate claim to the monopoly on force would look like. To what other entity would it cede that legitimate claim, and/or how would it prevent other entities from enacting capricious violence, as has occurred from time to time in the world, and even now. The state's claim is to legitimacy. A capricious exercise would be an abrogation of legitimacy Weber, Max (1978). Roth, Guenther; Wittich, Claus (eds.). Economy and Society. Berkeley: U. California Press. p. 54. <https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mode/1up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mod...> The "monopoly on violence" or "monopoly on force" short-hands are a much more recent emergence, and seem to originate with Murray Rothbard (1960s) and Robert Nozick (1970s), though widespread usage of that phrase really only begins to take off after 1980, per Google's Ngram Viewer: <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=monopoly+on+violence%2C+monopoly+on+force&year_start=1819&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=monopoly+on+vi...> That shorthand has become quite popular, and is often cited by Libertarians as key to their adopting that particular ideology.[1] As expressed by them the formulation is both incorrect and misleading. ________________________________ Notes: 1. E.g., Penn Jillette, <https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertarian-453565 https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertaria...> and Charles Koch <https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertarian-453565 https://www.newsweek.com/penn-jillette-how-became-libertaria...>.
  - AmericanChopper 3y ago
    I think you’re really putting the kart before the horse here. It’s certainly not true that no legitimate governments existed prior to the 20th century, regardless of what particular phrases may be been invented to describe them during that time. Just like gravity existed long before Newton managed to come up with a sensible description of it. You also almost get to describing the actual reality of the situation, but not quite, which is that a monopoly on violence and a state are the same thing. All states emerged when some group attempted to assert a monopoly over violence, and whether they fail or succeed in becoming a state comes down to their ability to monopolise violence. The status of legitimacy here is entirely subjective, and if it’s called into question, the only way it’s ever falsified is if some other group successfully challenges that monopoly.

midoridensha 3y ago

Well this isn't the first time in recent history the French government was a supporter of genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_and_the_Rwandan_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_and_the_Rwandan_genocid...

realusername 3y ago
France did not support the genocide, they just didn't do much at all apart from accepting refugies, also confirmed by more recent declassified papers.

sofixa 3y ago

> and is being prosecuted as passionately as self defence killings often are. Citation needed of self-defence killings im France being prosecuted passionately and unfairly.

ohgodplsno 3y ago
https://www.dalloz-actualite.fr/interview/vanessa-codaccioni-plus-de-90-des-affaires-de-legitime-defense-finissent-au-tribunal https://www.dalloz-actualite.fr/interview/vanessa-codaccioni... 90% of self defense cases end in the tribunal, meaning that the judges saw it as not-self-defense. The biggest factor in all this is proportionality: if you killed someone in self defense but were not yourself having your life threatened, you will go to court.
- zirgs 3y ago
  Any physical assault is potentially life threatening. One unlucky fall on the pavement and that's it - you can easily die or become permanently disabled. Yet another reason why it's better to deescalate and/or run away if possible.
  - ohgodplsno 3y ago
    Yep, and this is the logic that is followed by judges: self defense is pretty much only valid if you had no other option. Run away. Always run away.
    - AmericanChopper 3y ago
      > self defense is pretty much only valid if you had no other option. Running away is a good idea for many reasons, but very few US states or foreign jurisdictions have a duty to retreat as you’re describing here.
      - ohgodplsno 3y ago
        Good thing this was in the context of France, then.