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> Where are the meditation groups that aren't beholden to some religion or cult? Where are the online forums where people discuss their experiences that aren't

> Where are the meditation groups that aren't beholden to some religion or cult? Where are the online forums where people discuss their experiences that aren't overrun with New Age cranks? Where are the meditation instructions that don't reference "Buddha nature", "divine light", or similar supernatural ballast? Why is it a taboo unless you totally secularise it? I’m not following. Meditation comes from a religious context, and I don’t see why it’s a taboo just because that context remains Further, the secular mindfulness and meditation movements are huge, and there are many serious secular oriented meditation books (TMI, MCTB, etc. tho I’m not personally a fan of them)

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Meditation comes from a religious context I have seen no evidence of this. Many religious practices involve meditation. But they also commonly involve song; it doesn’t follow that singing comes from a religious context.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  https://positivepsychology.com/history-of-meditation/ https://positivepsychology.com/history-of-meditation/ > The earliest written records of meditation come from the Hindu Vedas around 1500 BCE (Sharma, 2015). The Torah also contains a description of the patriarch Isaac going to “lasuach” in a field, a kind of Jewish meditation most likely practiced around 1000 BCE (Kaplan, 1985). > I have seen no evidence of this. That doesn't imply no evidence. In fact, there is tons of evidence that meditation originated from a religious context. It is not even controversial.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  I have never encountered a form of meditation that wasn’t heavily inspired by a religious context, most often Vedic traditions or Buddhism. Can you give an example of a historically completely secular form of meditation?
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    Our earliest written records mention meditation within religious contexts. Both predate history. All modern organised practices of meditation derive from religious sources, but organised practices of meditation is a subset of meditation—mindfully training attention and awareness to achieve “a mentally clear and emotionally calm and stable state” [1]. (Seen another way: almost all our historical sources about medicine mention it in a religious context. That doesn’t mean medicine comes from religion.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      This contradicts your singing example, since not all singing derives from religious sources, so why bring it up? You are making the same point as me right now: all modern meditation comes from religious sources
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > not all singing derives from religious sources If you look for the oldest written songs, they’re invariably religious. The evidence used to establish meditation as religiously derived is sufficient to prove the same for song. In fact, with the evidence at hand, I could just as easily argue that all religion derives from meditation. Secularly speaking, that is a simpler hypothesis than the inverse. > all modern meditation comes from religious sources I said modern organised practices of meditation come from religious sources. That caveat is as big as the difference between organised religion and sprituality, generally.
- harimau777 3y ago
  I'm not sure that singing is really that separated from religious context. You'd have a hard time becoming a classically trained singer without singing a lot of classical Christian music. You wouldn't get far in Blues or Bluegrass without being exposed to traditional spirituals.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Meditation comes from a religious context I have seen no evidence of this. Many religious practices involve meditation. But they also commonly involve song; it doesn’t follow that singing comes from a religious context.

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
https://positivepsychology.com/history-of-meditation/ https://positivepsychology.com/history-of-meditation/ > The earliest written records of meditation come from the Hindu Vedas around 1500 BCE (Sharma, 2015). The Torah also contains a description of the patriarch Isaac going to “lasuach” in a field, a kind of Jewish meditation most likely practiced around 1000 BCE (Kaplan, 1985). > I have seen no evidence of this. That doesn't imply no evidence. In fact, there is tons of evidence that meditation originated from a religious context. It is not even controversial.
bowsamic 3y ago
I have never encountered a form of meditation that wasn’t heavily inspired by a religious context, most often Vedic traditions or Buddhism. Can you give an example of a historically completely secular form of meditation?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  Our earliest written records mention meditation within religious contexts. Both predate history. All modern organised practices of meditation derive from religious sources, but organised practices of meditation is a subset of meditation—mindfully training attention and awareness to achieve “a mentally clear and emotionally calm and stable state” [1]. (Seen another way: almost all our historical sources about medicine mention it in a religious context. That doesn’t mean medicine comes from religion.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    This contradicts your singing example, since not all singing derives from religious sources, so why bring it up? You are making the same point as me right now: all modern meditation comes from religious sources
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > not all singing derives from religious sources If you look for the oldest written songs, they’re invariably religious. The evidence used to establish meditation as religiously derived is sufficient to prove the same for song. In fact, with the evidence at hand, I could just as easily argue that all religion derives from meditation. Secularly speaking, that is a simpler hypothesis than the inverse. > all modern meditation comes from religious sources I said modern organised practices of meditation come from religious sources. That caveat is as big as the difference between organised religion and sprituality, generally.
harimau777 3y ago
I'm not sure that singing is really that separated from religious context. You'd have a hard time becoming a classically trained singer without singing a lot of classical Christian music. You wouldn't get far in Blues or Bluegrass without being exposed to traditional spirituals.