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> I've known since I was a young child that teachers didn't get paid much They don't? The government publishes the names of all government workers with incomes

> I've known since I was a young child that teachers didn't get paid much They don't? The government publishes the names of all government workers with incomes >$100,000. All of the teachers I personally know are found on it, and they aren't special outliers. The same teachers also collectively own one of the world's largest hedge funds. For perspective, median employment income is $38,000. $100,000 puts one in the top 9%. Is this some kind of twist on the no true Scotsman, where no matter how much a teacher is paid it isn't enough?

delecti 3y ago
I think it's two things. I grew up in fairly well-off areas (despite being rather poor ourselves), so teachers in comparison made quite little. And your examples are outliers, most teachers make quite a bit less than $100,000 [1]. Those salaries are above the median, but not as much as I think they deserve. With how important it is, I think teaching should be a competitive and well-compensated field. [1]https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d17/tables/dt17_211.60.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d17/tables/dt17_211.60.a...
- randomdata 3y ago
  > And your examples are outliers With respect to the world? Yes. No doubt teachers in Niger are making pennies a day and most teachers somewhere in between. But with respect to here? No. That is very much typical. > With how important it is How important is it? This is the most educated place on earth, according to the OECD. What do we have to show for it? Presumably you live in another part of the world. When you think: Educated utopia, no doubt this is where you think of (I am curious if you guess right). What stands out about it? > I think teaching should be a competitive and well-compensated field. This is contradictory. Competition drives down wages. Monopoly is the way to fortune! Teaching here is supply managed. The government controls how many accredited teachers are produced each year, and has reduced the number of would-be teachers allowed to be accredited in the past when there was too much competitive pressure. This creates an Old Boys Club that keeps the hobos who would drive down wages out. As such, they can demand just about anything they want, hence being amongst the top earners. About the only job that might pay more is software developer (if just barely), and only because software developers have figured out how to scale their work. Teachers are reluctant to scale. > Those salaries are above the median, but not as much as I think they deserve. If all the income in this jurisdiction was evenly divided amongst the working population, each person would make approximately $60,000 each year. While an economy need not be zero sum, it will be zero sum if there is no change in behaviour. As a thought experiment, if we assume that teachers want to keep on teaching the way they always have, who do you want to take from in order to pay them more?
beardicus 3y ago
national (US) average teacher salary this year is estimated to be $68,469. zero states have an average over $100k, though NY is in the high 90s. do you just happen to live in NY and know a lot of late-career teachers then?
bamfly 3y ago
Cool. In my city, there's a gas station chain that pays better (total comp) after a year than teaching with 10 years of experience (without a graduate degree). The gas stations don't require any degree at all, either. I hear they're pretty nice places to work. I know because my wife heard one of her brighter students was going to do that while attending college part-time, got curious (the girl had talked about what a good situation it'd be for her) and found out the girl'd be earning more than she did, before long. You can break $100k here, but it requires a PhD or a couple master's degrees, and for you to have been in so long that you're near retirement. What's a starting teacher make in your area? How does that compare to others with bachelor's degrees? The useful comparison isn't overall median, it's what someone with the skills we'd hope even a middling teacher had, and a degree, could be making elsewhere. I can tell you that's definitely more than teachers make, at least here, which means their pay sucks. Lots of those jobs are less stressful, too.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > What's a starting teacher make in your area? $60k first year, $80k in year 5, $100k by year 10. > How does that compare to others with bachelor's degrees? $50k first year, $55k in year 5, 10 year information not available. But isn't this like asking how does the pay compare to others who take a vacation during the summer or some other irrelevant metric? Maybe things are different where you are, but here we can clearly see in the data that there was no change to incomes as people started attaining bachelor degrees – incomes have held as stagnant as stagnant can be – so it is not like a bachelors degree has an impact on pay. Is there relevance to the question? It is true that the school system works to filter out those with disabilities and other life struggles; factors which do impact earning potential. Are you asking with the intent to see if teachers make more than someone with down syndrome or some such condition?
  - bamfly 3y ago
    Those holding bachelor's don't have higher median wages than those without, in your area? That's wild. Yikes. $60k's not so bad to start. IIRC it's still like $38-42k here—in a city and its 'burbs, not rural districts. They're slowly adjusting to the fact that low-end wages shot way up & inflation is hitting hard, and now their pay, which was just sad-making before, is absolutely pathetic, and their 1.5% annual bumps an insult, but they're not adjusting fast enough. Staffing's getting really tight and lots of teachers have left for 25-50% raises and less stress in other industries—and, go figure, the ones best-positioned to do that are the best teachers. Many districts are dropping to 4-day weeks to cut costs, better deal with the still ongoing substitute shortage, and attract more teachers. We're leaving for a state with pay more like what you mention, because we don't want our kids attending schools that are experiencing a slow-motion catastrophe—this state's gonna be in for a rough time in the coming years.

delecti 3y ago

I think it's two things. I grew up in fairly well-off areas (despite being rather poor ourselves), so teachers in comparison made quite little. And your examples are outliers, most teachers make quite a bit less than $100,000 [1]. Those salaries are above the median, but not as much as I think they deserve. With how important it is, I think teaching should be a competitive and well-compensated field. [1]https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d17/tables/dt17_211.60.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d17/tables/dt17_211.60.a...

randomdata 3y ago
> And your examples are outliers With respect to the world? Yes. No doubt teachers in Niger are making pennies a day and most teachers somewhere in between. But with respect to here? No. That is very much typical. > With how important it is How important is it? This is the most educated place on earth, according to the OECD. What do we have to show for it? Presumably you live in another part of the world. When you think: Educated utopia, no doubt this is where you think of (I am curious if you guess right). What stands out about it? > I think teaching should be a competitive and well-compensated field. This is contradictory. Competition drives down wages. Monopoly is the way to fortune! Teaching here is supply managed. The government controls how many accredited teachers are produced each year, and has reduced the number of would-be teachers allowed to be accredited in the past when there was too much competitive pressure. This creates an Old Boys Club that keeps the hobos who would drive down wages out. As such, they can demand just about anything they want, hence being amongst the top earners. About the only job that might pay more is software developer (if just barely), and only because software developers have figured out how to scale their work. Teachers are reluctant to scale. > Those salaries are above the median, but not as much as I think they deserve. If all the income in this jurisdiction was evenly divided amongst the working population, each person would make approximately $60,000 each year. While an economy need not be zero sum, it will be zero sum if there is no change in behaviour. As a thought experiment, if we assume that teachers want to keep on teaching the way they always have, who do you want to take from in order to pay them more?

beardicus 3y ago

national (US) average teacher salary this year is estimated to be $68,469. zero states have an average over $100k, though NY is in the high 90s. do you just happen to live in NY and know a lot of late-career teachers then?

bamfly 3y ago

Cool. In my city, there's a gas station chain that pays better (total comp) after a year than teaching with 10 years of experience (without a graduate degree). The gas stations don't require any degree at all, either. I hear they're pretty nice places to work. I know because my wife heard one of her brighter students was going to do that while attending college part-time, got curious (the girl had talked about what a good situation it'd be for her) and found out the girl'd be earning more than she did, before long. You can break $100k here, but it requires a PhD or a couple master's degrees, and for you to have been in so long that you're near retirement. What's a starting teacher make in your area? How does that compare to others with bachelor's degrees? The useful comparison isn't overall median, it's what someone with the skills we'd hope even a middling teacher had, and a degree, could be making elsewhere. I can tell you that's definitely more than teachers make, at least here, which means their pay sucks. Lots of those jobs are less stressful, too.

randomdata 3y ago
> What's a starting teacher make in your area? $60k first year, $80k in year 5, $100k by year 10. > How does that compare to others with bachelor's degrees? $50k first year, $55k in year 5, 10 year information not available. But isn't this like asking how does the pay compare to others who take a vacation during the summer or some other irrelevant metric? Maybe things are different where you are, but here we can clearly see in the data that there was no change to incomes as people started attaining bachelor degrees – incomes have held as stagnant as stagnant can be – so it is not like a bachelors degree has an impact on pay. Is there relevance to the question? It is true that the school system works to filter out those with disabilities and other life struggles; factors which do impact earning potential. Are you asking with the intent to see if teachers make more than someone with down syndrome or some such condition?
- bamfly 3y ago
  Those holding bachelor's don't have higher median wages than those without, in your area? That's wild. Yikes. $60k's not so bad to start. IIRC it's still like $38-42k here—in a city and its 'burbs, not rural districts. They're slowly adjusting to the fact that low-end wages shot way up & inflation is hitting hard, and now their pay, which was just sad-making before, is absolutely pathetic, and their 1.5% annual bumps an insult, but they're not adjusting fast enough. Staffing's getting really tight and lots of teachers have left for 25-50% raises and less stress in other industries—and, go figure, the ones best-positioned to do that are the best teachers. Many districts are dropping to 4-day weeks to cut costs, better deal with the still ongoing substitute shortage, and attract more teachers. We're leaving for a state with pay more like what you mention, because we don't want our kids attending schools that are experiencing a slow-motion catastrophe—this state's gonna be in for a rough time in the coming years.