6 ms·

All I care about when it comes to editors is availability (on every platform, can be used in a terminal), longevity, and the community for third party plugins.

All I care about when it comes to editors is availability (on every platform, can be used in a terminal), longevity, and the community for third party plugins. Vim still checks all of those boxes and the only real other contender is still Emacs. Vim is super crusty, Kakoune and helix have better takes on the unix philosophy, integrations. VSCode is easier for absolute beginners to click around in. IntelliJ has better semantic parsing. But none of that matters. None of that holds me back from being successful. I just need an editor I can type code in that I will never have to give up, that will just be there, and I can use at the next job. In fact Vim's quick editing is just a nice to have, it's never been the difference between me killing it and getting killed at work. That's why I'm sticking with Vim.

eviks 3y ago
Why do you care so much about availability of an app that is unusable without a lot of plugins? At which point, you can copy plugin code with the editor app to a place you need it available in
- bee_rider 3y ago
  “Unusable without any plugins” is quite a description to throw in there as an assumption.
  - bourneavent 3y ago
    It's barely useable. I rely a lot on code completion, search capabilities and syntax checking while I code. It just saves a lot of time from having to execute the compiler and wait for it to check everything. With good "plugins" or "features" all of these things happen async.
    - offices 3y ago
      Like Godwin's Law, every discussion of Vim on HN will inevitably tend towards complaining that it doesn't have features that it has shipped with 10-30 years.
      - bourneavent 3y ago
        It doesn't have code completion. You can install it as a feature, but vim itself doesn't have that feature. There needs to be a law for someone either flat out lying or not knowing what they're talking about because godwin's law doesn't apply here. Additionally installing these features on vim is a nightmare for various reasons. It can be done, and I've done it, but the experience is not as good as the more clunkier GUI IDEs. I'm all for a TUI IDE if the experience was as automated or seamless as jetbrains or M$, but such a app doesn't exist yet.
        offices 3y ago
        ^n
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      That’s your preference, which is fine. I started using extensions earlier this year, they were a little annoying to set up and don’t add much, I probably won’t do it again if I change machines.
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      Sometimes it's faster to fix the code where the bug is, rather than trying to recreate it in your cushy dev environment. Sometimes that means driving somewhere and working through at 9600 baud over an RS-232 cable. Do this a couple times and you'll find that vi is quite usable--you just have to want it to be.
      - bourneavent 3y ago
        >Sometimes it's faster to fix the code where the bug is, rather than trying to recreate it in your cushy dev environment Sometimes, but with single powerful IDE solutions from companies like jetbrains, setting up a "cushy" environment is barely any work. >Sometimes that means driving somewhere and working through at 9600 baud over an RS-232 cable. Do this a couple times and you'll find that vi is quite usable--you just have to want it to be. Of course if your network connections completely fail you have to use the serial console to fix it. There's no going around that. But the majority of developers don't even need to do this or don't even know what you're talking about as they only interact with cloud services nowadays. Additionally a "cushy" environment doesn't preclude you from using serial console or using vim to do edits everywhere. VI in this sense is barely useable, it's basically the baseline necessity. You need it when all else fails. But it's not good to have it as your daily driver.
        __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
        > Sometimes, but with single powerful IDE solutions from companies like jetbrains, setting up a "cushy" environment is barely any work. I promise, installing a Jetbrains product on a traffic controller (which is what I was thinking of re: the field trip) would be a tremendous amount of work. > The majority of developers don't even need to do this or don't even know what you're talking about as they only interact with cloud services nowadays. Yes, and they're one geomagnetic storm away from being entirely useless. It might not be for everybody, but there's value in being able to work with a lean toolset.
        bourneavent 3y ago
        >I promise, installing a Jetbrains product on a traffic controller (which is what I was thinking of re: the field trip) would be a tremendous amount of work. Jetbrains isn't installed on a traffic controller. It's installed on your local machine. Both VSCode and jetbrains have something called "remote development" which allow you to develop on a remote machine as if it was local. It's similar to ssh and vim. >Yes, and they're one geomagnetic storm away from being entirely useless. It might not be for everybody, but there's value in being able to work with a lean toolset. A geomagnetic storm will render everything useless, I don't see how a vim user will be more protected then a vscode user.
- chongli 3y ago
  The point of an editor having tons of plugins is captured in one phrase: the long tail [1]. A mature tool with a healthy ecosystem of plugins will have every user installing a unique (or nearly unique) suite of plugins. Attempting to have the base tool itself support all those millions of different use cases and configurations is a lost cause. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Tail_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Tail_(book)
  - eviks 3y ago
    You're just reinforcing my point instead of addressing it, the tail of plugins you need is not available everywhere
    - ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
      The plug-ins are for the home environment, customized to be ideal and cover all bases. Like a home office. The core functionality being available everywhere means a familiar and efficient, even if not ideal and complete, suite is available everywhere else: servers, other computers, a new system. For transient / temporary use. Like on a business trip, a flight, or the conference.
      - eviks 3y ago
        Except it's neither familiar nor efficient because, e.g., you're using your custom keybindings in your "home office" (and there are a dozen of more things that become integral to your editing experience), all of which would break down your basics. Just like you wouldn't use a random laptop during a business trip and expect to be efficient, you'd bring your own!
        davidatbu 3y ago
        A data point: I'm a plugin-heavy neovim user, and I wholeheartedly testify that familiarity with vi modal editing is incredibly useful when ssh-ing into remote systems, and I don't have my plugins.
- goodpoint 3y ago
  Vim is not an "app".
tsuujin 3y ago
I was drawn to helix specifically because it is excellent without the need for plugins. LSP and tree-sitter grammars carry so many of the features I had to add to vim and emacs—over years of configuring—that I feel like I’m not missing anything important; despite having an emacs config large enough to justify its own repo outside all my other dotfiles. My whole helix config is telling helix what theme I want and the path to my nix formatter, and it feels nice.
gnull 3y ago
Your points concern everything around text editing, but not editing itself. Emacs brings nothing new to the table with respect to editing model, it's essentially notepad (with different interface, plugins, yada yada yada — all the things you mention). Vim has a model with modal editing, much better than Emacs. Kakoune and Helix improve this model even further. It's like comparing cars by the color of the trim and air conditioning, instead of… er… their car performance (power, speed, fuel usage, durability). If you don't care about editing models, and just want to "type code", then Vim is hardly the best choice. Emacs and Intellij are much better than Vim at plugins, and are as available as anything else.
- tsukikage 3y ago
  > Emacs brings nothing new to the table with respect to editing model, it's essentially notepad Emacs (1976) predates Notepad (1983). I do understand what you mean, though. For people using Windows, Emacs needs to be sought out and installed, this effort needs to be justified (assuming one is permitted to install software at all), and hence the requirement for Emacs to "bring something new to the table" over the default option, Notepad, which is just /already there/. The most basic, implicit, requirement, then, is exactly as GP says: availability. All else follows.
  - gnull 3y ago
    I meant Notepad as an example of something that implements the basic "move the cursor between the characters with arrow keys and type to insert text" way of interacting with text. In terms of this, Emacs is exactly Notepad + plugins. And plugins (unless they drastically change the way you interact with text, like Evil mode) are usually doing something that is orthogonal to the editing model, and can be slapped on top of any editor with any model. I didn't mean that one is based on the other historically. Notepad was meant as the most minimal example that implements one of the Emacs'es aspects.
- celrod 3y ago
  Chordal editing isn't as popular as modal editing, but I do like it and think it's something uncommon in other editors, at least to the same extant as emacs. The thing I like about emacs is the integration and consistent experience. I can do everything in emacs (and use exwm as my window manager), so I have the same keybindings for everything. As perhaps an extreme example, imagine having 1. A window manager like i3 2. tmux or screen 3. (n)vim or helix sessions with edited files, possibly inside tmux/screen Each of these need to be configured separately, and each layer needs different keybindings so that uncaught ones can be forwarded from one layer to the next. Each layer is limited to only the subset of things it manages. E.g., i3 can let you switch between firefox and the terminal running tmux, but not the different sessions tmux manages, or views of any of the files in your nvim session. Etc. Or I could just use emacs create tiles I can move between, and each of which that is capable of opening any of my x-windows, terminal sessions, or open files. You can even use the same autocomplete in your shell as when editing files. I don't know of anything that gives the same simple, unified, workflow of EXWM (+ corfu&consult&...). It does have issues and could use a serious modernization -- still single threaded in 2023, with some commands blocking IO??? -- but perhaps it's simply much too ambitious for someone to try and make a competitor. These can have modal editing, tree sitter and lsp integration would be great, etc. The thing I want is the smooth integration of everything I may do on a computer into one interface that emacs, but no other software I'm aware of, offers.
deleted 3y ago
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eviks 3y ago

Why do you care so much about availability of an app that is unusable without a lot of plugins? At which point, you can copy plugin code with the editor app to a place you need it available in

bee_rider 3y ago
“Unusable without any plugins” is quite a description to throw in there as an assumption.
- bourneavent 3y ago
  It's barely useable. I rely a lot on code completion, search capabilities and syntax checking while I code. It just saves a lot of time from having to execute the compiler and wait for it to check everything. With good "plugins" or "features" all of these things happen async.
  - offices 3y ago
    Like Godwin's Law, every discussion of Vim on HN will inevitably tend towards complaining that it doesn't have features that it has shipped with 10-30 years.
    - bourneavent 3y ago
      It doesn't have code completion. You can install it as a feature, but vim itself doesn't have that feature. There needs to be a law for someone either flat out lying or not knowing what they're talking about because godwin's law doesn't apply here. Additionally installing these features on vim is a nightmare for various reasons. It can be done, and I've done it, but the experience is not as good as the more clunkier GUI IDEs. I'm all for a TUI IDE if the experience was as automated or seamless as jetbrains or M$, but such a app doesn't exist yet.
      - offices 3y ago
        ^n
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    That’s your preference, which is fine. I started using extensions earlier this year, they were a little annoying to set up and don’t add much, I probably won’t do it again if I change machines.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    Sometimes it's faster to fix the code where the bug is, rather than trying to recreate it in your cushy dev environment. Sometimes that means driving somewhere and working through at 9600 baud over an RS-232 cable. Do this a couple times and you'll find that vi is quite usable--you just have to want it to be.
    - bourneavent 3y ago
      >Sometimes it's faster to fix the code where the bug is, rather than trying to recreate it in your cushy dev environment Sometimes, but with single powerful IDE solutions from companies like jetbrains, setting up a "cushy" environment is barely any work. >Sometimes that means driving somewhere and working through at 9600 baud over an RS-232 cable. Do this a couple times and you'll find that vi is quite usable--you just have to want it to be. Of course if your network connections completely fail you have to use the serial console to fix it. There's no going around that. But the majority of developers don't even need to do this or don't even know what you're talking about as they only interact with cloud services nowadays. Additionally a "cushy" environment doesn't preclude you from using serial console or using vim to do edits everywhere. VI in this sense is barely useable, it's basically the baseline necessity. You need it when all else fails. But it's not good to have it as your daily driver.
      - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
        > Sometimes, but with single powerful IDE solutions from companies like jetbrains, setting up a "cushy" environment is barely any work. I promise, installing a Jetbrains product on a traffic controller (which is what I was thinking of re: the field trip) would be a tremendous amount of work. > The majority of developers don't even need to do this or don't even know what you're talking about as they only interact with cloud services nowadays. Yes, and they're one geomagnetic storm away from being entirely useless. It might not be for everybody, but there's value in being able to work with a lean toolset.
        bourneavent 3y ago
        >I promise, installing a Jetbrains product on a traffic controller (which is what I was thinking of re: the field trip) would be a tremendous amount of work. Jetbrains isn't installed on a traffic controller. It's installed on your local machine. Both VSCode and jetbrains have something called "remote development" which allow you to develop on a remote machine as if it was local. It's similar to ssh and vim. >Yes, and they're one geomagnetic storm away from being entirely useless. It might not be for everybody, but there's value in being able to work with a lean toolset. A geomagnetic storm will render everything useless, I don't see how a vim user will be more protected then a vscode user.
chongli 3y ago
The point of an editor having tons of plugins is captured in one phrase: the long tail [1]. A mature tool with a healthy ecosystem of plugins will have every user installing a unique (or nearly unique) suite of plugins. Attempting to have the base tool itself support all those millions of different use cases and configurations is a lost cause. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Tail_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Tail_(book)
- eviks 3y ago
  You're just reinforcing my point instead of addressing it, the tail of plugins you need is not available everywhere
  - ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
    The plug-ins are for the home environment, customized to be ideal and cover all bases. Like a home office. The core functionality being available everywhere means a familiar and efficient, even if not ideal and complete, suite is available everywhere else: servers, other computers, a new system. For transient / temporary use. Like on a business trip, a flight, or the conference.
    - eviks 3y ago
      Except it's neither familiar nor efficient because, e.g., you're using your custom keybindings in your "home office" (and there are a dozen of more things that become integral to your editing experience), all of which would break down your basics. Just like you wouldn't use a random laptop during a business trip and expect to be efficient, you'd bring your own!
      - davidatbu 3y ago
        A data point: I'm a plugin-heavy neovim user, and I wholeheartedly testify that familiarity with vi modal editing is incredibly useful when ssh-ing into remote systems, and I don't have my plugins.
goodpoint 3y ago
Vim is not an "app".

tsuujin 3y ago

I was drawn to helix specifically because it is excellent without the need for plugins. LSP and tree-sitter grammars carry so many of the features I had to add to vim and emacs—over years of configuring—that I feel like I’m not missing anything important; despite having an emacs config large enough to justify its own repo outside all my other dotfiles. My whole helix config is telling helix what theme I want and the path to my nix formatter, and it feels nice.

gnull 3y ago

Your points concern everything around text editing, but not editing itself. Emacs brings nothing new to the table with respect to editing model, it's essentially notepad (with different interface, plugins, yada yada yada — all the things you mention). Vim has a model with modal editing, much better than Emacs. Kakoune and Helix improve this model even further. It's like comparing cars by the color of the trim and air conditioning, instead of… er… their car performance (power, speed, fuel usage, durability). If you don't care about editing models, and just want to "type code", then Vim is hardly the best choice. Emacs and Intellij are much better than Vim at plugins, and are as available as anything else.

tsukikage 3y ago
> Emacs brings nothing new to the table with respect to editing model, it's essentially notepad Emacs (1976) predates Notepad (1983). I do understand what you mean, though. For people using Windows, Emacs needs to be sought out and installed, this effort needs to be justified (assuming one is permitted to install software at all), and hence the requirement for Emacs to "bring something new to the table" over the default option, Notepad, which is just /already there/. The most basic, implicit, requirement, then, is exactly as GP says: availability. All else follows.
- gnull 3y ago
  I meant Notepad as an example of something that implements the basic "move the cursor between the characters with arrow keys and type to insert text" way of interacting with text. In terms of this, Emacs is exactly Notepad + plugins. And plugins (unless they drastically change the way you interact with text, like Evil mode) are usually doing something that is orthogonal to the editing model, and can be slapped on top of any editor with any model. I didn't mean that one is based on the other historically. Notepad was meant as the most minimal example that implements one of the Emacs'es aspects.
celrod 3y ago
Chordal editing isn't as popular as modal editing, but I do like it and think it's something uncommon in other editors, at least to the same extant as emacs. The thing I like about emacs is the integration and consistent experience. I can do everything in emacs (and use exwm as my window manager), so I have the same keybindings for everything. As perhaps an extreme example, imagine having 1. A window manager like i3 2. tmux or screen 3. (n)vim or helix sessions with edited files, possibly inside tmux/screen Each of these need to be configured separately, and each layer needs different keybindings so that uncaught ones can be forwarded from one layer to the next. Each layer is limited to only the subset of things it manages. E.g., i3 can let you switch between firefox and the terminal running tmux, but not the different sessions tmux manages, or views of any of the files in your nvim session. Etc. Or I could just use emacs create tiles I can move between, and each of which that is capable of opening any of my x-windows, terminal sessions, or open files. You can even use the same autocomplete in your shell as when editing files. I don't know of anything that gives the same simple, unified, workflow of EXWM (+ corfu&consult&...). It does have issues and could use a serious modernization -- still single threaded in 2023, with some commands blocking IO??? -- but perhaps it's simply much too ambitious for someone to try and make a competitor. These can have modal editing, tree sitter and lsp integration would be great, etc. The thing I want is the smooth integration of everything I may do on a computer into one interface that emacs, but no other software I'm aware of, offers.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]