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> Someone can likewise have every intention of being ethical, but just be bad at it. Is there really any empirical evidence that such people exist and could be

> Someone can likewise have every intention of being ethical, but just be bad at it. Is there really any empirical evidence that such people exist and could be helped by an ethics course? I think laymen [to ethics] with a desire to be ethical can generally go about being ethical with little more than the Golden Rule. And if somebody hasn't figured out the Golden Rule yet by the time of their mandatory ethics course in college, there's probably something wrong with them (narcissism? psychopathy? some compulsion that makes them listen to intrusive thoughts?) that will make the ethics lectures basically pointless. The most effective time to teach ethics is probably Kindergarten, plus or minus a few years. I just don't believe in the existence of adults who want to be ethical but don't know how because a college professor hasn't explained it to them.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> Is there really any empirical evidence that such people exist and could be helped by an ethics course? Yes. Many, many people (including me) don't speak up when we see someone else doing something wrong. These ethics courses not only drill home the point of the importance of speaking up, but helpfully give many mechanisms in which one can speak up anonymously, or otherwise in a protected manner. A hypothetical of a situation the GP may have had in mind would be a person who is thinking of fudging or taking a shortcut, but doesn't want anything bad to happen. Ethics courses can show how minor deviations in ethical practice can have major impacts (jokingly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dWjKkF0Zi4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dWjKkF0Zi4 ). These courses can also show that actively stopping work for an ethical reason will not be punished or looked down on in any way. Because of this the person will feel confident in checking their initial impulse to fudge and instead do what's right. Showing people how they can be ethical is just as important as showing them what ethics are. We don't need to be moral heroes in order to take more ethical action.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  If you haven't learned how to speak up before you get to a college ethics class, I honestly question whether you ever will. Normally this sort of principle is drilled into people at a very young age. If it doesn't stick, I don't think a professor telling you to read Kant or Singer is going to do any good. And you don't, or shouldn't, need an ethics course to tell you that minor deviations from the plan can have unintended consequences that might have ethical implications. Take taxi drivers for instance, a minor shortcut over a sidewalk could have lethal consequences; do we expect taxi drivers to know this already without having taken an ethics course in college? Of course.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    Honestly I was thinking of the kind of 1 hour "course" that college students and employees get mandated once a year. Those are chock full of useful information and tips. Probably a big change from semester long for-credit college "courses". Many people learn early in life that to speak up is to get shut down. This can be combated later in life with good examples and policies.
jjk166 3y ago
What you are describing is morality, not ethics. You would probably benefit from an ethics course.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  M8 I took an ethics course. Thank goodness the professor taught me insightful things like "don't write software that hurts people", I never would have thought of that myself! Don't write code for x-ray machines if I don't know what I'm doing.. got it! Incidentally I still have my assigned text from that course, right next to me in fact. "Cyberethics: Morality and Law in Cyberspace" Hmmm...
  - jjk166 3y ago
    I meant a competent ethics course.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago

> Is there really any empirical evidence that such people exist and could be helped by an ethics course? Yes. Many, many people (including me) don't speak up when we see someone else doing something wrong. These ethics courses not only drill home the point of the importance of speaking up, but helpfully give many mechanisms in which one can speak up anonymously, or otherwise in a protected manner. A hypothetical of a situation the GP may have had in mind would be a person who is thinking of fudging or taking a shortcut, but doesn't want anything bad to happen. Ethics courses can show how minor deviations in ethical practice can have major impacts (jokingly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dWjKkF0Zi4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dWjKkF0Zi4 ). These courses can also show that actively stopping work for an ethical reason will not be punished or looked down on in any way. Because of this the person will feel confident in checking their initial impulse to fudge and instead do what's right. Showing people how they can be ethical is just as important as showing them what ethics are. We don't need to be moral heroes in order to take more ethical action.

mcpackieh 3y ago
If you haven't learned how to speak up before you get to a college ethics class, I honestly question whether you ever will. Normally this sort of principle is drilled into people at a very young age. If it doesn't stick, I don't think a professor telling you to read Kant or Singer is going to do any good. And you don't, or shouldn't, need an ethics course to tell you that minor deviations from the plan can have unintended consequences that might have ethical implications. Take taxi drivers for instance, a minor shortcut over a sidewalk could have lethal consequences; do we expect taxi drivers to know this already without having taken an ethics course in college? Of course.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  Honestly I was thinking of the kind of 1 hour "course" that college students and employees get mandated once a year. Those are chock full of useful information and tips. Probably a big change from semester long for-credit college "courses". Many people learn early in life that to speak up is to get shut down. This can be combated later in life with good examples and policies.

jjk166 3y ago

What you are describing is morality, not ethics. You would probably benefit from an ethics course.

mcpackieh 3y ago
M8 I took an ethics course. Thank goodness the professor taught me insightful things like "don't write software that hurts people", I never would have thought of that myself! Don't write code for x-ray machines if I don't know what I'm doing.. got it! Incidentally I still have my assigned text from that course, right next to me in fact. "Cyberethics: Morality and Law in Cyberspace" Hmmm...
- jjk166 3y ago
  I meant a competent ethics course.