4 ms·

How many ways can you split ownership? Is it just a majority 51%+ owner of the property?

by count 3y ago

nostromo 3y ago
The bill seems to say that if 1,000 people own a parcel of property with a corporation, the corporation would get one vote. Also, if an individual owns many llcs, they only get one individual vote. So the absolute maximum votes would be city residents + city parcels.
- mindslight 3y ago
  What does the bill say about jointly owned real estate? Like two people owning one vacation house? Do they each get one vote? Then what about three different LLCs that each own 33% of a piece of real estate? Then what about multiple series of a series LLC jointly owning a property? The individual series of a Delaware Series LLC do not need to be recorded in the articles of organization or registered anywhere else [0]. So you can create one series LLC and then unilaterally create an infinite number of distinct legal entities, each owning a small share of some real estate. Surely each series can't get its own whole vote. [0] by my quick skimming of the bill the entity would have to be registered in the city's list of voters. No idea if there is a fee for an entity registering to vote, or whether the city could legally balk if you showed up with a stack of ten thousand voter registrations.
  - count 3y ago
    That was where I was going - a property jointly and severally owned by say, 8000 LLCs.
    - mindslight 3y ago
      Another option would be subdividing a piece of real estate. Zoning approvals are generally needed to create buildable lots. But depending on what the registry of deeds will let you record [0], you could divide the area into tiny individual parcels, each singularly owned. Of course if you did any of these hacks "at scale" I'd imagine the city would balk, court case, judge not finding equity in your hack, etc. The goal is pointing out perverse incentives that will inevitably crop up inadvertently, unless the bill diligently accounts for the new weird legal contours it'd create. [0] I'm assuming that ownership being recorded would be required to register to vote, as opposed to a voter registration being allowed to say "trust me I own real estate in this city via unrecorded deed"
      - count 3y ago
        Ahaha, that's also evil genius.
- zuminator 3y ago
  > Also, if an individual owns many llcs, they only get one individual vote. You may be right but I'm not seeing that in the text of the bill. It says: (3) These provisions shall be construed in accordance with the principle of “one person/entity/one vote.” Where a voter is entitled to vote by virtue of being both a resident and an owner of real property, that voter shall be entitled to only one (1) vote; where a voter is entitled to vote by ownership of two (2) or more parcels of real property, that voter shall be entitled to only one (1) vote. Elswehere it says it says that a voter can be either a natural person or an artificial entity. So if I have a thousand separate LLCs, and each one owns a separate parcel, then legally it's still "one... entity/one vote." But even if that is disallowed because my name is on the LLCs, what's stopping me from paying 1000 out-of-state randos off the street fifty bucks each to put their names on a thousand Delaware LLCs but conferring upon me through a side contract power of attorney to vote on their behalf? It's just kind of weird to me that we nearly had a coup d'etat a couple of years back (ostensibly) over the issue of fake votes, and here's a legislative provision codifying the right of non-residents to vote via a legal fiction. I mean Delaware, you do you, but I certainly wouldn't want this to spread to my state.
  - nostromo 3y ago
    > where a voter is entitled to vote by ownership of two (2) or more parcels of real property, that voter shall be entitled to only one (1) vote. This is the part that says that even if you own multiple (2 or more) LLCs, you can still only vote once.
    - zuminator 3y ago
      The bill doesn't say even if you own "2 or more LLCs." It says if you own "2 or more parcels of real property." So, who owns the property in this scenario? The LLC owns the property. You personally don't own either parcel. Each LLC owns 1 parcel of property, each LLC is a separate artificial entity, and per the bill, "every owner of property in the City...whether a natural person or artificial entity...shall have one (1) vote." Thus, you can effectively control multiple votes by having a controlling interest in multiple LLCs.
- brewdad 3y ago
  The beauty of the Delaware system is that there is no name to put with a corporation. It’s basically the Swiss bank account of corporation creation. An individual with 1,000 Lllcs will have access to 1,000 votes should they choose to use it.

How many ways can you split ownership? Is it just a majority 51%+ owner of the property?

by count 3y ago

How many ways can you split ownership? Is it just a majority 51%+ owner of the property?

The bill seems to say that if 1,000 people own a parcel of property with a corporation, the corporation would get one vote. Also, if an individual owns many llcs, they only get one individual vote. So the absolute maximum votes would be city residents + city parcels.

mindslight 3y ago
What does the bill say about jointly owned real estate? Like two people owning one vacation house? Do they each get one vote? Then what about three different LLCs that each own 33% of a piece of real estate? Then what about multiple series of a series LLC jointly owning a property? The individual series of a Delaware Series LLC do not need to be recorded in the articles of organization or registered anywhere else [0]. So you can create one series LLC and then unilaterally create an infinite number of distinct legal entities, each owning a small share of some real estate. Surely each series can't get its own whole vote. [0] by my quick skimming of the bill the entity would have to be registered in the city's list of voters. No idea if there is a fee for an entity registering to vote, or whether the city could legally balk if you showed up with a stack of ten thousand voter registrations.
- count 3y ago
  That was where I was going - a property jointly and severally owned by say, 8000 LLCs.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    Another option would be subdividing a piece of real estate. Zoning approvals are generally needed to create buildable lots. But depending on what the registry of deeds will let you record [0], you could divide the area into tiny individual parcels, each singularly owned. Of course if you did any of these hacks "at scale" I'd imagine the city would balk, court case, judge not finding equity in your hack, etc. The goal is pointing out perverse incentives that will inevitably crop up inadvertently, unless the bill diligently accounts for the new weird legal contours it'd create. [0] I'm assuming that ownership being recorded would be required to register to vote, as opposed to a voter registration being allowed to say "trust me I own real estate in this city via unrecorded deed"
    - count 3y ago
      Ahaha, that's also evil genius.
zuminator 3y ago
> Also, if an individual owns many llcs, they only get one individual vote. You may be right but I'm not seeing that in the text of the bill. It says: (3) These provisions shall be construed in accordance with the principle of “one person/entity/one vote.” Where a voter is entitled to vote by virtue of being both a resident and an owner of real property, that voter shall be entitled to only one (1) vote; where a voter is entitled to vote by ownership of two (2) or more parcels of real property, that voter shall be entitled to only one (1) vote. Elswehere it says it says that a voter can be either a natural person or an artificial entity. So if I have a thousand separate LLCs, and each one owns a separate parcel, then legally it's still "one... entity/one vote." But even if that is disallowed because my name is on the LLCs, what's stopping me from paying 1000 out-of-state randos off the street fifty bucks each to put their names on a thousand Delaware LLCs but conferring upon me through a side contract power of attorney to vote on their behalf? It's just kind of weird to me that we nearly had a coup d'etat a couple of years back (ostensibly) over the issue of fake votes, and here's a legislative provision codifying the right of non-residents to vote via a legal fiction. I mean Delaware, you do you, but I certainly wouldn't want this to spread to my state.
- nostromo 3y ago
  > where a voter is entitled to vote by ownership of two (2) or more parcels of real property, that voter shall be entitled to only one (1) vote. This is the part that says that even if you own multiple (2 or more) LLCs, you can still only vote once.
  - zuminator 3y ago
    The bill doesn't say even if you own "2 or more LLCs." It says if you own "2 or more parcels of real property." So, who owns the property in this scenario? The LLC owns the property. You personally don't own either parcel. Each LLC owns 1 parcel of property, each LLC is a separate artificial entity, and per the bill, "every owner of property in the City...whether a natural person or artificial entity...shall have one (1) vote." Thus, you can effectively control multiple votes by having a controlling interest in multiple LLCs.
brewdad 3y ago
The beauty of the Delaware system is that there is no name to put with a corporation. It’s basically the Swiss bank account of corporation creation. An individual with 1,000 Lllcs will have access to 1,000 votes should they choose to use it.