6 ms·

Stuff the ballot box! Seems like it would be relatively cheap for a corporation(s) to register countless entities "including but not limited to corporations, pa

Stuff the ballot box! Seems like it would be relatively cheap for a corporation(s) to register countless entities "including but not limited to corporations, partnerships, trusts, and limited liability companies", which already register there for legal arbitrage, and then really create their own set of rules.

lkbm 3y ago
You have to own property there, but maybe you can have an endless number of corporations share ownership of a property, or divide up the property into arbitrarily small parcels. Not sure how much work I'd be willing to go through to gain control of Seaford DE, though.
nostromo 3y ago
That would be quite the loophole! Except it’s specifically outlawed in the bill. This also isn’t for Delaware the state, it’s for a small town in Delaware called Seaford. And remember, each llc has to own property in Seaford to vote in city elections. So I suppose a large group of people could spend millions of dollars to sway a city council election for a town with a few thousand residents.
- count 3y ago
  How many ways can you split ownership? Is it just a majority 51%+ owner of the property?
  - nostromo 3y ago
    The bill seems to say that if 1,000 people own a parcel of property with a corporation, the corporation would get one vote. Also, if an individual owns many llcs, they only get one individual vote. So the absolute maximum votes would be city residents + city parcels.
    - mindslight 3y ago
      What does the bill say about jointly owned real estate? Like two people owning one vacation house? Do they each get one vote? Then what about three different LLCs that each own 33% of a piece of real estate? Then what about multiple series of a series LLC jointly owning a property? The individual series of a Delaware Series LLC do not need to be recorded in the articles of organization or registered anywhere else [0]. So you can create one series LLC and then unilaterally create an infinite number of distinct legal entities, each owning a small share of some real estate. Surely each series can't get its own whole vote. [0] by my quick skimming of the bill the entity would have to be registered in the city's list of voters. No idea if there is a fee for an entity registering to vote, or whether the city could legally balk if you showed up with a stack of ten thousand voter registrations.
      - count 3y ago
        That was where I was going - a property jointly and severally owned by say, 8000 LLCs.
        mindslight 3y ago
        Another option would be subdividing a piece of real estate. Zoning approvals are generally needed to create buildable lots. But depending on what the registry of deeds will let you record [0], you could divide the area into tiny individual parcels, each singularly owned. Of course if you did any of these hacks "at scale" I'd imagine the city would balk, court case, judge not finding equity in your hack, etc. The goal is pointing out perverse incentives that will inevitably crop up inadvertently, unless the bill diligently accounts for the new weird legal contours it'd create. [0] I'm assuming that ownership being recorded would be required to register to vote, as opposed to a voter registration being allowed to say "trust me I own real estate in this city via unrecorded deed"
        count 3y ago
        Ahaha, that's also evil genius.
key8chev 3y ago
It seems like the bill requires your LLC/Corporation own property in the city, not just be any registered corporation operating in the area. Seems like a way to enable vacationers/landlords vote in local elections.
- actionablefiber 3y ago
  > Seems like a way to enable vacationers/landlords vote in local elections. I can't think of any compelling reason to do this.
  - TX81Z 3y ago
    $$$
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Because if you own a summer house you have a legitimate interest in how the town administers utilities and garbage collection, zoning that affects your property values, police spending, etc.
    - actionablefiber 3y ago
      I don't think that's a compelling reason. I would be infuriated as a full-time resident to see a legion of absentee landlords and fair-weather vacationers suppress representation of my arguably significantly more legitimate interests. Those people would have literally purchased, with cash, a right to vote in democratic elections in my locality, free of any obligation to maintain a presence there. Something I as a renter do not have.
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        If you live there as a renter as a primary residence you get to vote too -- I don't know what your last sentence is talking about. Similarly "purchased with cash" with your rent money. What makes your "interests" more legitimate in a location if you live there for 183 days of the year, when they live there for only 182? I personally would not be infuriated at all if my part-time neighbor voted in the local election. It would be totally fine by me.

lkbm 3y ago

You have to own property there, but maybe you can have an endless number of corporations share ownership of a property, or divide up the property into arbitrarily small parcels. Not sure how much work I'd be willing to go through to gain control of Seaford DE, though.

nostromo 3y ago

That would be quite the loophole! Except it’s specifically outlawed in the bill. This also isn’t for Delaware the state, it’s for a small town in Delaware called Seaford. And remember, each llc has to own property in Seaford to vote in city elections. So I suppose a large group of people could spend millions of dollars to sway a city council election for a town with a few thousand residents.

count 3y ago
How many ways can you split ownership? Is it just a majority 51%+ owner of the property?
- nostromo 3y ago
  The bill seems to say that if 1,000 people own a parcel of property with a corporation, the corporation would get one vote. Also, if an individual owns many llcs, they only get one individual vote. So the absolute maximum votes would be city residents + city parcels.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    What does the bill say about jointly owned real estate? Like two people owning one vacation house? Do they each get one vote? Then what about three different LLCs that each own 33% of a piece of real estate? Then what about multiple series of a series LLC jointly owning a property? The individual series of a Delaware Series LLC do not need to be recorded in the articles of organization or registered anywhere else [0]. So you can create one series LLC and then unilaterally create an infinite number of distinct legal entities, each owning a small share of some real estate. Surely each series can't get its own whole vote. [0] by my quick skimming of the bill the entity would have to be registered in the city's list of voters. No idea if there is a fee for an entity registering to vote, or whether the city could legally balk if you showed up with a stack of ten thousand voter registrations.
    - count 3y ago
      That was where I was going - a property jointly and severally owned by say, 8000 LLCs.
      - mindslight 3y ago
        Another option would be subdividing a piece of real estate. Zoning approvals are generally needed to create buildable lots. But depending on what the registry of deeds will let you record [0], you could divide the area into tiny individual parcels, each singularly owned. Of course if you did any of these hacks "at scale" I'd imagine the city would balk, court case, judge not finding equity in your hack, etc. The goal is pointing out perverse incentives that will inevitably crop up inadvertently, unless the bill diligently accounts for the new weird legal contours it'd create. [0] I'm assuming that ownership being recorded would be required to register to vote, as opposed to a voter registration being allowed to say "trust me I own real estate in this city via unrecorded deed"
        count 3y ago
        Ahaha, that's also evil genius.

key8chev 3y ago

It seems like the bill requires your LLC/Corporation own property in the city, not just be any registered corporation operating in the area. Seems like a way to enable vacationers/landlords vote in local elections.

actionablefiber 3y ago
> Seems like a way to enable vacationers/landlords vote in local elections. I can't think of any compelling reason to do this.
- TX81Z 3y ago
  $$$
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Because if you own a summer house you have a legitimate interest in how the town administers utilities and garbage collection, zoning that affects your property values, police spending, etc.
  - actionablefiber 3y ago
    I don't think that's a compelling reason. I would be infuriated as a full-time resident to see a legion of absentee landlords and fair-weather vacationers suppress representation of my arguably significantly more legitimate interests. Those people would have literally purchased, with cash, a right to vote in democratic elections in my locality, free of any obligation to maintain a presence there. Something I as a renter do not have.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      If you live there as a renter as a primary residence you get to vote too -- I don't know what your last sentence is talking about. Similarly "purchased with cash" with your rent money. What makes your "interests" more legitimate in a location if you live there for 183 days of the year, when they live there for only 182? I personally would not be infuriated at all if my part-time neighbor voted in the local election. It would be totally fine by me.