6 ms·

I have a 13 and a 15 year old, and my opinion is it's the phones.

by sfblah 3y ago

novalis78 3y ago
Social media and computer games in general.
- Buttons840 3y ago
  The scores have increased since the 70s until a peak in 2012. Social media may play a role, but "computer games in general" have existed for decades, and been blamed for decades, and in most of those decades test scores have improved. Leave blaming "computer games" to the 90s.
  - basisword 3y ago
    Games have changed significantly though. I feel like the PS4 in 2013 was the first games console to make online gaming widespread. Playing a self contained game by yourself or in person with friends is a very different experience to loot boxes, IAP’s, and games designed to make you play more and more. Maybe it’s not impactful but I don’t think you can dismiss it as easily as you have.
    - vanilla_nut 3y ago
      Agreed, but I would argue that the PS3/Xbox 360 generation was the first where the majority of console owners played online. I was an adolescent/teenager at the time and it was almost a guarantee that any other boys in my class had one of those consoles and played online. Almost invariably first person shooters. Very different from today's pay-to-win manipulative Skinner Boxes, but probably not very healthy. Living someplace where I couldn't physically hang out with other kids easily after school (thanks, car culture) it probably helped me build better social skills. But at the cost of my attention span and physical social skills. It certainly makes me wonder what skill tradeoffs today's video game kids are making.
  - dmm 3y ago
    Opiates have existed since ancient times so fentanyl is not a problem. Potency and availability matter. I've heard of multiple cases of kids soiling themselves rather than stop playing a game. I never heard of that growing up surrounded with video games. https://www.news24.com/life/archive/how-a-9-year-old-became-so-addicted-to-fortnite-she-wet-herself-to-keep-playing-20180613 https://www.news24.com/life/archive/how-a-9-year-old-became-...
optimalsolver 3y ago
And this darned, newfangled Internet thing. And don’t even get me started on printed, moveable type.
- the_sleaze9 3y ago
  This is an incredibly myopic view, the "internet" is now composed of the most psychologically addicting programs known to man, and no one is safe. It's so powerful it's having meaningful negative impact on our democracy and meaureable impact on childrens' mental health. And here you are.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    It would be like if we completely deregulated all gambling and allowed extremely perverted betting systems and advertising all around encouraging addiction. Actually we are going in that direction with all the sports betting bullshit too.
- basisword 3y ago
  Get yourself a job at one of the social media giants, or one of the ad tech companies and see the investments they make into engagement and addicting young people to their apps and devices. It’s appalling. Not many kids are reading articles on the internet, they’re consuming TikTok for hours. The newfangled Internet thing can be a blessing and a curse, and it can curse some more than others.
karmakurtisaani 3y ago
No doubt the electronics explain the majority of it. Giving the kids a gadget like the phone is the ultimate lazy parenting.
johndhi 3y ago
How do your kids use phones? What about it hurts the scores?
- missedthecue 3y ago
  The way children use smartphones today destroys attention spans for one.
  - mustacheemperor 3y ago
    This is exactly - verbatim - the same theory my parents applied to my lagging grades 20 years ago, except then it was videogames and the TV.
    - sneed_chucker 3y ago
      A lot has changed since then.
    - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
      [dead]
    - asdff 3y ago
      Are you watching TV when you have a free thirty seconds at the urinal? Waiting for the elevator for a minute? The red light? Any waking moment at all with the TV in front of you? It was certainly not ideal then given how addictive marketing on these screens has always been, but its even worse now in terms of attention span.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      There was no "algorithm" tuned to swap out the games in my nintendo every couple of minutes to keep me drowning in dopamine.
    - missedthecue 3y ago
      I've seen my younger cousin pull up his phone for a dopamine hit during the 17 seconds he waits for his video game loading screen to finish. It just isn't the same as it was 20 years ago. The algorithms are crazy and extremely effective, and it's all so accessible. And of course it's not just kids, it's everyone. But kids are the only humans that are regularly and uniformly tested for aptitude with public results we can all look at and discuss. Just for a random statistic to support this assertion, over 50% of US adults haven't read a single book in the past 12 months. Something that would have been unthinkable in the 1990s.
opportune 3y ago
I’m in basically the first cohort to get fully fledged (web browsing, YouTube, social media, games, porn) unmonitored smartphone access at those ages and I think it did not mess me up much if at all. I was living in isolated suburbia so it’s not like playing outside was an option anyway. If those are a problem, it’s more likely to be from getting access at a younger age IMO. I have a theory that it’s primarily the increasing use of video as a medium that is damaging. Not only does video prevent building literacy skills, it also tends to be used to deliver content that leads to parasocial relationships and celebrity worship which is frankly concerning IME.
- smogcutter 3y ago
  > I was living in isolated suburbia so it’s not like playing outside was an option anyway. Obviously not really addressing your childhood in particular, but this is insane to me. Isn’t playing outside the whole point of moving to the suburbs? I grew up in Brooklyn and we played outside all day. I have a hard time seeing how more space, more grass, and less traffic makes that not really an option. Maybe this is a generational thing?
  - opportune 3y ago
    I think it’s a generational thing for sure. I guess when I say suburbia I mean something kind of in between culdesac master-planned communities (which are easier to play in) and an actual urban environment. There are too many roads with too many cars, and it’s not the 70s anymore, so proportionately fewer houses have kids at all, and if they do they’re not likely to be your school mates. Plus, stranger danger came and changed everything. I’m not saying no teenagers run around outside anymore but among middle class teens it’s a lot less common than it was - life is more like being shuttled to an fro extracurriculars or friends’ places by your parents’ car.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  I know we're talking about kids here, but as an adult, I'm not a video learner. I need written material (with good examples, usually) to really learn something. I need to read to understand and then apply and be able to check what I'm doing against a crop of known good implementations. The trend in learning, like Frontend Masters, while amazing for what it is, its all video, and I'm finding people are putting out more and more video to teach topics, and less and less written works to teach stuff, and I'm getting more and more frustrated at this, as it takes me longer to digest videos than written materials. I don't know how anyone learns to become a developer from just watching videos and doing exercises, my pace would be that of a snail. And yes, I get that everyone learns differently, but us who learn best from reading are being left out in the cold.

I have a 13 and a 15 year old, and my opinion is it's the phones.

by sfblah 3y ago

I have a 13 and a 15 year old, and my opinion is it's the phones.

novalis78 3y ago

Social media and computer games in general.

Buttons840 3y ago
The scores have increased since the 70s until a peak in 2012. Social media may play a role, but "computer games in general" have existed for decades, and been blamed for decades, and in most of those decades test scores have improved. Leave blaming "computer games" to the 90s.
- basisword 3y ago
  Games have changed significantly though. I feel like the PS4 in 2013 was the first games console to make online gaming widespread. Playing a self contained game by yourself or in person with friends is a very different experience to loot boxes, IAP’s, and games designed to make you play more and more. Maybe it’s not impactful but I don’t think you can dismiss it as easily as you have.
  - vanilla_nut 3y ago
    Agreed, but I would argue that the PS3/Xbox 360 generation was the first where the majority of console owners played online. I was an adolescent/teenager at the time and it was almost a guarantee that any other boys in my class had one of those consoles and played online. Almost invariably first person shooters. Very different from today's pay-to-win manipulative Skinner Boxes, but probably not very healthy. Living someplace where I couldn't physically hang out with other kids easily after school (thanks, car culture) it probably helped me build better social skills. But at the cost of my attention span and physical social skills. It certainly makes me wonder what skill tradeoffs today's video game kids are making.
- dmm 3y ago
  Opiates have existed since ancient times so fentanyl is not a problem. Potency and availability matter. I've heard of multiple cases of kids soiling themselves rather than stop playing a game. I never heard of that growing up surrounded with video games. https://www.news24.com/life/archive/how-a-9-year-old-became-so-addicted-to-fortnite-she-wet-herself-to-keep-playing-20180613 https://www.news24.com/life/archive/how-a-9-year-old-became-...

optimalsolver 3y ago

And this darned, newfangled Internet thing. And don’t even get me started on printed, moveable type.

the_sleaze9 3y ago
This is an incredibly myopic view, the "internet" is now composed of the most psychologically addicting programs known to man, and no one is safe. It's so powerful it's having meaningful negative impact on our democracy and meaureable impact on childrens' mental health. And here you are.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  It would be like if we completely deregulated all gambling and allowed extremely perverted betting systems and advertising all around encouraging addiction. Actually we are going in that direction with all the sports betting bullshit too.
basisword 3y ago
Get yourself a job at one of the social media giants, or one of the ad tech companies and see the investments they make into engagement and addicting young people to their apps and devices. It’s appalling. Not many kids are reading articles on the internet, they’re consuming TikTok for hours. The newfangled Internet thing can be a blessing and a curse, and it can curse some more than others.

karmakurtisaani 3y ago

No doubt the electronics explain the majority of it. Giving the kids a gadget like the phone is the ultimate lazy parenting.

johndhi 3y ago

How do your kids use phones? What about it hurts the scores?

missedthecue 3y ago
The way children use smartphones today destroys attention spans for one.
- mustacheemperor 3y ago
  This is exactly - verbatim - the same theory my parents applied to my lagging grades 20 years ago, except then it was videogames and the TV.
  - sneed_chucker 3y ago
    A lot has changed since then.
  - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
    [dead]
  - asdff 3y ago
    Are you watching TV when you have a free thirty seconds at the urinal? Waiting for the elevator for a minute? The red light? Any waking moment at all with the TV in front of you? It was certainly not ideal then given how addictive marketing on these screens has always been, but its even worse now in terms of attention span.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    There was no "algorithm" tuned to swap out the games in my nintendo every couple of minutes to keep me drowning in dopamine.
  - missedthecue 3y ago
    I've seen my younger cousin pull up his phone for a dopamine hit during the 17 seconds he waits for his video game loading screen to finish. It just isn't the same as it was 20 years ago. The algorithms are crazy and extremely effective, and it's all so accessible. And of course it's not just kids, it's everyone. But kids are the only humans that are regularly and uniformly tested for aptitude with public results we can all look at and discuss. Just for a random statistic to support this assertion, over 50% of US adults haven't read a single book in the past 12 months. Something that would have been unthinkable in the 1990s.

opportune 3y ago

I’m in basically the first cohort to get fully fledged (web browsing, YouTube, social media, games, porn) unmonitored smartphone access at those ages and I think it did not mess me up much if at all. I was living in isolated suburbia so it’s not like playing outside was an option anyway. If those are a problem, it’s more likely to be from getting access at a younger age IMO. I have a theory that it’s primarily the increasing use of video as a medium that is damaging. Not only does video prevent building literacy skills, it also tends to be used to deliver content that leads to parasocial relationships and celebrity worship which is frankly concerning IME.

smogcutter 3y ago
> I was living in isolated suburbia so it’s not like playing outside was an option anyway. Obviously not really addressing your childhood in particular, but this is insane to me. Isn’t playing outside the whole point of moving to the suburbs? I grew up in Brooklyn and we played outside all day. I have a hard time seeing how more space, more grass, and less traffic makes that not really an option. Maybe this is a generational thing?
- opportune 3y ago
  I think it’s a generational thing for sure. I guess when I say suburbia I mean something kind of in between culdesac master-planned communities (which are easier to play in) and an actual urban environment. There are too many roads with too many cars, and it’s not the 70s anymore, so proportionately fewer houses have kids at all, and if they do they’re not likely to be your school mates. Plus, stranger danger came and changed everything. I’m not saying no teenagers run around outside anymore but among middle class teens it’s a lot less common than it was - life is more like being shuttled to an fro extracurriculars or friends’ places by your parents’ car.
no_wizard 3y ago
I know we're talking about kids here, but as an adult, I'm not a video learner. I need written material (with good examples, usually) to really learn something. I need to read to understand and then apply and be able to check what I'm doing against a crop of known good implementations. The trend in learning, like Frontend Masters, while amazing for what it is, its all video, and I'm finding people are putting out more and more video to teach topics, and less and less written works to teach stuff, and I'm getting more and more frustrated at this, as it takes me longer to digest videos than written materials. I don't know how anyone learns to become a developer from just watching videos and doing exercises, my pace would be that of a snail. And yes, I get that everyone learns differently, but us who learn best from reading are being left out in the cold.