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Okay so I will pose a simple question and see how quickly I get downvoted to oblivion. Why is the town of Orania so beautiful, clean, and prosperous while the

by Dig1t 3y ago

Okay so I will pose a simple question and see how quickly I get downvoted to oblivion. Why is the town of Orania so beautiful, clean, and prosperous while the rest of South Africa is like this? You can watch videos of it on YouTube, it is very nice. Compare it with black towns or major cities in greater South Africa. Orania is a “whites only” town of about 2500 people. They don’t abuse or extract resources from blacks, they just live separately. This is the kind of dangerous question that GP is saying one is generally not allowed to ask. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania

rootusrootus 3y ago
Because white people in SA are quite a lot more wealthy than black people? And it's no surprise that wealth brings stability and peace.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  That doesn't seem to be the case there. From the wiki: "The average wage in Orania was estimated at approximately R94,036 per annum in 2019, low by White South African standards. In 2016, CNN reported unemployment in Orania at 2%. In 2015, a visiting journalist estimated the poverty rate at 70–80%" That seems to be similar: "Annual household income for blacks stood at an average of 92,893 rand (about $7,000)" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-economy/black-south-africans-still-earn-far-less-than-whites-survey-idUSKBN15B152 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-economy/black-sou...
  - 93po 3y ago
    The second sentence of your link literally says the average income for white people was four times higher than black people. Orania has 2066 people, and a third of them are children. That leaves 1363 adults. The official stats say there are only 609 people employed there, which means less than half of the adults work. Combined with making their own currency, elections, not having any real police force or public services, and the rest of SA basically leaving them alone, this all screams "racist white people with a lot of money who want to roleplay Fallout mixed with Atlas Shrugged".
    - reducesuffering 3y ago
      > The second sentence of your link literally says the average income for white people was four times higher than black people. How is that relevant when GP was saying that it's wealth that makes the difference, but the stats show equivalent wealth between the two groups we were talking about: Oranians and black South Africans. The point is that by the data, these two groups aren't wealthy, there's nothing to suggest that Oranians have "a lot of money", and thus GP's assertion is incorrect and was just a random claim not backed by the data.
      - 93po 3y ago
        I'm not sure I follow. Oranians are 98% white. Black South Africans I assume are 100% black. Oranians are therefore part of the white group that make 4 times as much. And while not backed by data, there are assumptions that can be made (that i laid out) to suggest that Oranians do have a lot more wealth than SA on average
happytoexplain 3y ago
Referring to your own impending downvotes in the opening of your post is a form of antagonism that creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. The idea is usually that you can then use the downvotes as "evidence" of your correctness (of course, that's fallacious - downvotes can be for anything, and an antagonistic tone combined with portraying yourself as the underdog is one of the most prominent examples, regardless of the content of your post). And if you don't get downvoted - even better for your case! It's a cheap win-win for you.
arrakeen 3y ago
> Why is the town of Orania so beautiful, clean, and prosperous while the rest of South Africa is like this? because it's a tiny, self-selecting intentional community? i hate to feed the troll, but it's pretty obvious why a small, singular ideology-driven community might appear more "beautiful, clean, and prosperous" than a large metropolis
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  Just to play devils advocate here, I don't have a dog on this fight and I basically agree with you, but Johannesburg is/was a large metropolis and was once "beautiful, clean and prosperous", so I wouldn't say it's obvious.

by Dig1t 3y ago

rootusrootus 3y ago

Because white people in SA are quite a lot more wealthy than black people? And it's no surprise that wealth brings stability and peace.

reducesuffering 3y ago
That doesn't seem to be the case there. From the wiki: "The average wage in Orania was estimated at approximately R94,036 per annum in 2019, low by White South African standards. In 2016, CNN reported unemployment in Orania at 2%. In 2015, a visiting journalist estimated the poverty rate at 70–80%" That seems to be similar: "Annual household income for blacks stood at an average of 92,893 rand (about $7,000)" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-economy/black-south-africans-still-earn-far-less-than-whites-survey-idUSKBN15B152 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-economy/black-sou...
- 93po 3y ago
  The second sentence of your link literally says the average income for white people was four times higher than black people. Orania has 2066 people, and a third of them are children. That leaves 1363 adults. The official stats say there are only 609 people employed there, which means less than half of the adults work. Combined with making their own currency, elections, not having any real police force or public services, and the rest of SA basically leaving them alone, this all screams "racist white people with a lot of money who want to roleplay Fallout mixed with Atlas Shrugged".
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    > The second sentence of your link literally says the average income for white people was four times higher than black people. How is that relevant when GP was saying that it's wealth that makes the difference, but the stats show equivalent wealth between the two groups we were talking about: Oranians and black South Africans. The point is that by the data, these two groups aren't wealthy, there's nothing to suggest that Oranians have "a lot of money", and thus GP's assertion is incorrect and was just a random claim not backed by the data.
    - 93po 3y ago
      I'm not sure I follow. Oranians are 98% white. Black South Africans I assume are 100% black. Oranians are therefore part of the white group that make 4 times as much. And while not backed by data, there are assumptions that can be made (that i laid out) to suggest that Oranians do have a lot more wealth than SA on average

happytoexplain 3y ago

Referring to your own impending downvotes in the opening of your post is a form of antagonism that creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. The idea is usually that you can then use the downvotes as "evidence" of your correctness (of course, that's fallacious - downvotes can be for anything, and an antagonistic tone combined with portraying yourself as the underdog is one of the most prominent examples, regardless of the content of your post). And if you don't get downvoted - even better for your case! It's a cheap win-win for you.

arrakeen 3y ago

> Why is the town of Orania so beautiful, clean, and prosperous while the rest of South Africa is like this? because it's a tiny, self-selecting intentional community? i hate to feed the troll, but it's pretty obvious why a small, singular ideology-driven community might appear more "beautiful, clean, and prosperous" than a large metropolis

friend_and_foe 3y ago
Just to play devils advocate here, I don't have a dog on this fight and I basically agree with you, but Johannesburg is/was a large metropolis and was once "beautiful, clean and prosperous", so I wouldn't say it's obvious.