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I think just having the idea of “South Africa seems to have been generally better off under Apartheid” is pretty scary for most people. So, they won’t even app

I think just having the idea of “South Africa seems to have been generally better off under Apartheid” is pretty scary for most people. So, they won’t even approach a conversation trying to determine the actual causes of decline because they feel any possible explanation is going to be racism-adjacent.

aaomidi 3y ago
Because saying that is stupid since Apartheid is the source of these problems? It kept a vast part of the country outside of the education needed to work the jobs that produce the highest values (finance, business, etc). So yeah the "observation" is correct, except the implication of it is not.
- bequanna 3y ago
  Ok, so your post does a nice job of shutting down conversation and finding racism where there was none intended (as predicted). Note that I imply nothing and the statement is a simple, albeit troubling, fact. How do you propose that the discussion of decline in South Africa is framed so it doesn’t devolve into people screaming “that’s racist!!”?
  - happytoexplain 3y ago
    >I imply nothing and the statement is a simple, albeit troubling, fact Words have implications. This is one of those fallacious "but it's true" things, where it honestly becomes difficult to give the speaker the benefit of the doubt - i.e. that you think the phrase "South Africa was [insert anything positive] under Apartheid", by itself, has no possible implications.
    - bequanna 3y ago
      Ok, cool. Words don’t necessarily trigger me but I suppose I can accept that others get emotional about specific word choice. Reframe the statement so some discussion on decline can proceed without triggering anyone.
      - mcdonje 3y ago
        It's unreasonable to expect people to take a statement in support of a fundamentally racist institution as not being racist. People aren't "triggered" for making that connection and they aren't "shutting down the conversation" for calling out the racism inherent in such a statement. It's incredibly easy to have a conversation about how to improve SA without taking needless diversions to support racist institutions. All you have to do is talk about potential solutions to current problems. That's it. That's all it takes. Bringing up historical racist institutions is a good way to derail and shut down reasonable discussion.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    No one is shutting your conversation, you're free to have it. Inform us, using that (correct) observation, whats the next step in the conversation?
- HideousKojima 3y ago
  >Because saying that is stupid since Apartheid is the source of these problems? Other African nations that didn't have Apartheid or similar institutions have similar economic and political results. And even the one sub Saharan nation that didn't experience colonization, Ethiopia, isn't screaming ahead of its neighbors economically or otherwise. Its GDP per capita is slightly ahead of Uganda's and fairly far below Kenya's.
  - pc86 3y ago
    Knowing approximately nothing about Ethiopia, is there any generally accepted (or at least considered) reason for this? It's landlocked but has rivers, climate and geography seems sufficiently diverse to support industries. Is it completely devoid of natural resources or something?
    - enterprise_cog 3y ago
      There has been a state of civil war there for decades.
    - cmh89 3y ago
      It's really hard to form stable, wealthy countries in general. Countries that have developed in the last 60 years tend to have strong authoritarian leaders and the favor and interest of Europe and the United States. Ethopia does have natural resources but it doesn't have a strong central government, partly because the warring factions want control of the resources. Places like UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar had strong dictators before they developed the petroleum industry. African states that have oil tend to be too weak politically to resist outside interests taking the wealth by paying bribes and funding warring factions.
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    Most of Africa has been colonized in one form or another for centuries. Which is just as harmful to a nation as systems like apartheid. Also what point are you trying to make here? You seem to be implying a common cause for these results. Care to explicitly state it?
- ipaddr 3y ago
  It's fair to say ending apartheid created all of these problems. The people in control are now from the low educated group you mention. Not surprising things are falling apart. It would be a surprise if it didn't. There needed to be a generational long effort to equalize the populations before you removed aparthheid.
  - archagon 3y ago
    What?! Justice cannot be made to wait.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    Wow. Just let racism run rampant for, what, an entire generation? To make the transition more comfortable for armchair sociologists? Sometimes when the house is on fire, you just get everybody out. Instead of 'waiting for the fire brigade' or 'somebody smarter than you needs to make that decision'. I'd hate to be that generation of young people condemned to a violently racist system because, it was going to be difficult for the rich to adjust.
    - Gud 3y ago
      Your analogy is flawed. A more apt analogy would be, that only white people were allowed in the fire brigade(which was also founded by white people). Now diversity quotas have been implemented and the fire brigade is mostly non-white. And now, Joeburg is on fire and the fire department is no longer able to put out the fire because of incompetence and mismanagement.
      - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
        No, that's exactly it. The new generation needs to be educated and trained. What they don't need is, to remain forbidden from that in a violently racist system. What they have now is to be preferred, even if it takes time to work out.
        ipaddr 3y ago
tech_ken 3y ago
"The country was doing fine when it was a racial caste system centered on extracting and exporting natural resources to the metropole" is definitely a hell of a take. Sure the British kept the city nice for themselves when they were getting approximately free mining labor out of the bargain. Shockingly there hasn't been stability during the transition away from this model; post-colonial regimes are unstable, welcome to world history. What if Europe repatriated some of the wealth that was extracted at gunpoint over the last two centuries? Maybe that would stabilize things somewhat.

aaomidi 3y ago

Because saying that is stupid since Apartheid is the source of these problems? It kept a vast part of the country outside of the education needed to work the jobs that produce the highest values (finance, business, etc). So yeah the "observation" is correct, except the implication of it is not.

bequanna 3y ago
Ok, so your post does a nice job of shutting down conversation and finding racism where there was none intended (as predicted). Note that I imply nothing and the statement is a simple, albeit troubling, fact. How do you propose that the discussion of decline in South Africa is framed so it doesn’t devolve into people screaming “that’s racist!!”?
- happytoexplain 3y ago
  >I imply nothing and the statement is a simple, albeit troubling, fact Words have implications. This is one of those fallacious "but it's true" things, where it honestly becomes difficult to give the speaker the benefit of the doubt - i.e. that you think the phrase "South Africa was [insert anything positive] under Apartheid", by itself, has no possible implications.
  - bequanna 3y ago
    Ok, cool. Words don’t necessarily trigger me but I suppose I can accept that others get emotional about specific word choice. Reframe the statement so some discussion on decline can proceed without triggering anyone.
    - mcdonje 3y ago
      It's unreasonable to expect people to take a statement in support of a fundamentally racist institution as not being racist. People aren't "triggered" for making that connection and they aren't "shutting down the conversation" for calling out the racism inherent in such a statement. It's incredibly easy to have a conversation about how to improve SA without taking needless diversions to support racist institutions. All you have to do is talk about potential solutions to current problems. That's it. That's all it takes. Bringing up historical racist institutions is a good way to derail and shut down reasonable discussion.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  No one is shutting your conversation, you're free to have it. Inform us, using that (correct) observation, whats the next step in the conversation?
HideousKojima 3y ago
>Because saying that is stupid since Apartheid is the source of these problems? Other African nations that didn't have Apartheid or similar institutions have similar economic and political results. And even the one sub Saharan nation that didn't experience colonization, Ethiopia, isn't screaming ahead of its neighbors economically or otherwise. Its GDP per capita is slightly ahead of Uganda's and fairly far below Kenya's.
- pc86 3y ago
  Knowing approximately nothing about Ethiopia, is there any generally accepted (or at least considered) reason for this? It's landlocked but has rivers, climate and geography seems sufficiently diverse to support industries. Is it completely devoid of natural resources or something?
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    There has been a state of civil war there for decades.
  - cmh89 3y ago
    It's really hard to form stable, wealthy countries in general. Countries that have developed in the last 60 years tend to have strong authoritarian leaders and the favor and interest of Europe and the United States. Ethopia does have natural resources but it doesn't have a strong central government, partly because the warring factions want control of the resources. Places like UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar had strong dictators before they developed the petroleum industry. African states that have oil tend to be too weak politically to resist outside interests taking the wealth by paying bribes and funding warring factions.
- enterprise_cog 3y ago
  Most of Africa has been colonized in one form or another for centuries. Which is just as harmful to a nation as systems like apartheid. Also what point are you trying to make here? You seem to be implying a common cause for these results. Care to explicitly state it?
ipaddr 3y ago
It's fair to say ending apartheid created all of these problems. The people in control are now from the low educated group you mention. Not surprising things are falling apart. It would be a surprise if it didn't. There needed to be a generational long effort to equalize the populations before you removed aparthheid.
- archagon 3y ago
  What?! Justice cannot be made to wait.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Wow. Just let racism run rampant for, what, an entire generation? To make the transition more comfortable for armchair sociologists? Sometimes when the house is on fire, you just get everybody out. Instead of 'waiting for the fire brigade' or 'somebody smarter than you needs to make that decision'. I'd hate to be that generation of young people condemned to a violently racist system because, it was going to be difficult for the rich to adjust.
  - Gud 3y ago
    Your analogy is flawed. A more apt analogy would be, that only white people were allowed in the fire brigade(which was also founded by white people). Now diversity quotas have been implemented and the fire brigade is mostly non-white. And now, Joeburg is on fire and the fire department is no longer able to put out the fire because of incompetence and mismanagement.
    - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
      No, that's exactly it. The new generation needs to be educated and trained. What they don't need is, to remain forbidden from that in a violently racist system. What they have now is to be preferred, even if it takes time to work out.
      - ipaddr 3y ago

tech_ken 3y ago

"The country was doing fine when it was a racial caste system centered on extracting and exporting natural resources to the metropole" is definitely a hell of a take. Sure the British kept the city nice for themselves when they were getting approximately free mining labor out of the bargain. Shockingly there hasn't been stability during the transition away from this model; post-colonial regimes are unstable, welcome to world history. What if Europe repatriated some of the wealth that was extracted at gunpoint over the last two centuries? Maybe that would stabilize things somewhat.