4 ms·

This is so great -- I've been waiting for this for decades. I always felt the tofurky or "impossible burger" approach was a dead end. Also I have trouble gett

by gumby 3y ago

This is so great -- I've been waiting for this for decades. I always felt the tofurky or "impossible burger" approach was a dead end. Also I have trouble getting enough protein with a plant-only diet. The big question of course is scale. Seems like the kind of thing that can develop an economy of scale better than the meat grown on the animal (farmers spend a lot of effort growing things that aren't salable, or are barely so, like bones and feathers). And the ultimate (scaled out) cost target is probably much better than the "traditional product" if the environmental impact gets priced into food costs.

bobthepanda 3y ago
Bones are pretty sellable; they improve the flavor of meat and are an integral component of soups and stocks.
- throwway120385 3y ago
  Some kinds of feathers are as well. They're often used in soft goods like pillows as stuffing. Also they're dyed and used as decoration. The bones actually have most of the micronutrients, and people used to eat marrow like butter to avoid wasting it.
  - bequanna 3y ago
    “Bone meal” and “feather meal” are commodity byproducts of the meat industry. You can find them used in animal feeds and even pet foods.
    - adrian_b 3y ago
      Moreover, bone meal is also sold as a human nutritional supplement, but curiously under disguised names, e.g. "Calcium Hydroxyapatite" (while bone meal does indeed contain hydroxyapatite, it also contains other minerals and a large amount of proteins), presumably in order to not scare the vegans, who are the main people who need such a nutritional supplement. While I eat almost only vegan food, I make an exception and I add to some of my food small quantities of such bone meal. However, unlike most people, I read very carefully the small print, so I am aware that this supplement is in fact made from cattle bones, even if its label does not suggest this.
- gcanyon 3y ago
  I would think that if they can grow meat, they can grow the things that bones contribute to flavor and stock.
Alex3917 3y ago
> farmers spend a lot of effort growing things that aren't salable, or are barely so, like bones and feathers These are the main ingredients in Plant-tone. This product might not be as relevant to folks who live in cities or in rural areas, but folks who live in the suburbs go through it like crazy.
- sp332 3y ago
  (It's fertilizer.)
lettergram 3y ago
> The big question of course is scale. I personally doubt this is anywhere near being able to compete with real chicken. Chickens are one of the most cost-effective sources of protein. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-efficiency-of-meat-and-dairy-production https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-efficiency-of-meat... To put it into perspective beef requires 50x more energy input, than caloric output. Chickens only require 7.7x more input than caloric output, eggs are 5x. Chickens take in corn and produce fat and protein. I'm unsure of the number of steps for lab grown meat, but I doubt it'll be fewer steps and likely will have more chemicals (and likely be less healthy). That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they add regulations and additional burden on the non-lab grown meats and subsidizing lab-grown meats (they effectively do already subsidize it through grants).
- was_a_dev 3y ago
  Is chicken production subsidised?
  - pstuart 3y ago
    Corn is subsidized, and chickens eat a lot of it.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  Per their protein content, chicken meat is only 2 to 3 times more expensive than legumes and only 3 to 4 times more expensive than cereals. Moreover, in legumes and cereals the proteins are mixed with large amounts of starch and if the proteins are separated from starch in industrial processes the cost of the protein extracts is many times higher than the cost of chicken meat. Only wheat flour is an exception, because the gluten from it can be extracted without special equipment or chemical substances, so wheat gluten is the only source of pure proteins that I am aware of and that is cheaper than chicken meat.
- gcanyon 3y ago
  > 7.7x more input than caloric output, eggs are 5x Fun fact, for octopuses that number is 3x, which (not that I've researched it) is the most efficient number I've found. https://animals.howstuffworks.com/marine-life/octopus5.htm#:~:text=A%20juvenile%20octopus%20grows%20at,by%205%20percent%20each%20day https://animals.howstuffworks.com/marine-life/octopus5.htm#:....
rngname22 3y ago
Lab-grown bone or chitinous materials may become ubiquitous in construction and building materials. Biology makes human engineering look like lego, as we learn more from nature and learn to bioengineer more and more complex forms from the cellular level we can expect to grow more of what we need organically rather than building with simple materials.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > Lab-grown bone or chitinous materials may become ubiquitous in construction and building materials https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa
BlakeSimpson 3y ago
After learning more on what these "impossible burgers" actually are, it was a no brainer that it was never going to be the answer. Looking forward to the development of this!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
voytec 3y ago
> Also I have trouble getting enough protein with a plant-only diet. Pea protein has 78/100g protein which sounds like a reasonable replacement for whey protein isolate (89/100g) or other animal sources. Not saying you should eat pea morning 'till evening but supplementing just protein powder is an option, too. What vegans may have trouble obtaining from non-animal sources are vitamin D3 and Omega3 fatty acids.
- pstuart 3y ago
  K2 and creatine as well.
  - gumby 3y ago
    And B12.
    - fnordpiglet 3y ago
      And taurine
    - adrian_b 3y ago
      B12 is one of the least problems, because there are several kinds of bacterial cultures that produce it with high efficiency. The research for improving the production of other kinds of vitamins is more active, by trying to either discover or create bacterial strains suitable for this purpose. A serious problem is that unlike the production of traditional food, the production of vitamins and nutritional supplements is concentrated in a few countries, and mostly in China. So if overnight everybody would become vegan, then suddenly most of the world would become nutritionally dependent on China. Ideally every bigger city should be able to produce the vitamins needed by its inhabitants, like it is able to produce other staple foods, but we are very far from this when entire countries may not have any vitamin production facility.
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    K2 is produced by humans from K1. Humans also produce creatine, choline and taurine, but for these three there is convincing evidence that the internal production is not sufficient, so for vegans it is beneficial to take supplements with them. It is likely that the internal production of K2 is also insufficient, but I have not seen yet any conclusive research results about this, because it is very difficult to control all confounding factors. Even if it is not certain that this is needed, it is prudent for vegans to also take vitamin K2 supplements, along with the other substances known to be missing or insufficient in vegetables (vitamins B12, D3 and K2; DHA and EPA; creatine, choline and taurine; iodine, selenium, calcium and sodium). However for any nutritional supplements the daily intakes must be chosen carefully, because on the labels of many such supplements the recommended daily dosage may be appropriate for someone who prepares for a sports competition or for someone who is treated to recover from a deficiency, while the normal daily intakes may be significantly lower than that.

by gumby 3y ago

bobthepanda 3y ago

Bones are pretty sellable; they improve the flavor of meat and are an integral component of soups and stocks.

throwway120385 3y ago
Some kinds of feathers are as well. They're often used in soft goods like pillows as stuffing. Also they're dyed and used as decoration. The bones actually have most of the micronutrients, and people used to eat marrow like butter to avoid wasting it.
- bequanna 3y ago
  “Bone meal” and “feather meal” are commodity byproducts of the meat industry. You can find them used in animal feeds and even pet foods.
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    Moreover, bone meal is also sold as a human nutritional supplement, but curiously under disguised names, e.g. "Calcium Hydroxyapatite" (while bone meal does indeed contain hydroxyapatite, it also contains other minerals and a large amount of proteins), presumably in order to not scare the vegans, who are the main people who need such a nutritional supplement. While I eat almost only vegan food, I make an exception and I add to some of my food small quantities of such bone meal. However, unlike most people, I read very carefully the small print, so I am aware that this supplement is in fact made from cattle bones, even if its label does not suggest this.
gcanyon 3y ago
I would think that if they can grow meat, they can grow the things that bones contribute to flavor and stock.

Alex3917 3y ago

> farmers spend a lot of effort growing things that aren't salable, or are barely so, like bones and feathers These are the main ingredients in Plant-tone. This product might not be as relevant to folks who live in cities or in rural areas, but folks who live in the suburbs go through it like crazy.

sp332 3y ago
(It's fertilizer.)

lettergram 3y ago

> The big question of course is scale. I personally doubt this is anywhere near being able to compete with real chicken. Chickens are one of the most cost-effective sources of protein. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-efficiency-of-meat-and-dairy-production https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-efficiency-of-meat... To put it into perspective beef requires 50x more energy input, than caloric output. Chickens only require 7.7x more input than caloric output, eggs are 5x. Chickens take in corn and produce fat and protein. I'm unsure of the number of steps for lab grown meat, but I doubt it'll be fewer steps and likely will have more chemicals (and likely be less healthy). That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they add regulations and additional burden on the non-lab grown meats and subsidizing lab-grown meats (they effectively do already subsidize it through grants).

was_a_dev 3y ago
Is chicken production subsidised?
- pstuart 3y ago
  Corn is subsidized, and chickens eat a lot of it.
adrian_b 3y ago
Per their protein content, chicken meat is only 2 to 3 times more expensive than legumes and only 3 to 4 times more expensive than cereals. Moreover, in legumes and cereals the proteins are mixed with large amounts of starch and if the proteins are separated from starch in industrial processes the cost of the protein extracts is many times higher than the cost of chicken meat. Only wheat flour is an exception, because the gluten from it can be extracted without special equipment or chemical substances, so wheat gluten is the only source of pure proteins that I am aware of and that is cheaper than chicken meat.
gcanyon 3y ago
> 7.7x more input than caloric output, eggs are 5x Fun fact, for octopuses that number is 3x, which (not that I've researched it) is the most efficient number I've found. https://animals.howstuffworks.com/marine-life/octopus5.htm#:~:text=A%20juvenile%20octopus%20grows%20at,by%205%20percent%20each%20day https://animals.howstuffworks.com/marine-life/octopus5.htm#:....

rngname22 3y ago

Lab-grown bone or chitinous materials may become ubiquitous in construction and building materials. Biology makes human engineering look like lego, as we learn more from nature and learn to bioengineer more and more complex forms from the cellular level we can expect to grow more of what we need organically rather than building with simple materials.

hulitu 3y ago
> Lab-grown bone or chitinous materials may become ubiquitous in construction and building materials https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

BlakeSimpson 3y ago

After learning more on what these "impossible burgers" actually are, it was a no brainer that it was never going to be the answer. Looking forward to the development of this!

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

voytec 3y ago

> Also I have trouble getting enough protein with a plant-only diet. Pea protein has 78/100g protein which sounds like a reasonable replacement for whey protein isolate (89/100g) or other animal sources. Not saying you should eat pea morning 'till evening but supplementing just protein powder is an option, too. What vegans may have trouble obtaining from non-animal sources are vitamin D3 and Omega3 fatty acids.

pstuart 3y ago
K2 and creatine as well.
- gumby 3y ago
  And B12.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    And taurine
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    B12 is one of the least problems, because there are several kinds of bacterial cultures that produce it with high efficiency. The research for improving the production of other kinds of vitamins is more active, by trying to either discover or create bacterial strains suitable for this purpose. A serious problem is that unlike the production of traditional food, the production of vitamins and nutritional supplements is concentrated in a few countries, and mostly in China. So if overnight everybody would become vegan, then suddenly most of the world would become nutritionally dependent on China. Ideally every bigger city should be able to produce the vitamins needed by its inhabitants, like it is able to produce other staple foods, but we are very far from this when entire countries may not have any vitamin production facility.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  K2 is produced by humans from K1. Humans also produce creatine, choline and taurine, but for these three there is convincing evidence that the internal production is not sufficient, so for vegans it is beneficial to take supplements with them. It is likely that the internal production of K2 is also insufficient, but I have not seen yet any conclusive research results about this, because it is very difficult to control all confounding factors. Even if it is not certain that this is needed, it is prudent for vegans to also take vitamin K2 supplements, along with the other substances known to be missing or insufficient in vegetables (vitamins B12, D3 and K2; DHA and EPA; creatine, choline and taurine; iodine, selenium, calcium and sodium). However for any nutritional supplements the daily intakes must be chosen carefully, because on the labels of many such supplements the recommended daily dosage may be appropriate for someone who prepares for a sports competition or for someone who is treated to recover from a deficiency, while the normal daily intakes may be significantly lower than that.