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The biggest problem for me is that Comcast does shitty things with the devices that they provide to customers. The CPE Comcast gives with their highest XFinity

The biggest problem for me is that Comcast does shitty things with the devices that they provide to customers. The CPE Comcast gives with their highest XFinity plan comes with "unlimited data", but if you refuse the device they charge an additional $30/mo to get "unlimited data", because they use the CPE to enforce customer-hostile QoS and throttling to negatively impact throughput and performance. When you use your own equipment you aren't impacted in the same way by this (with some exceptions, which you can workaround). The $30/mo fee is really just a "fuck you" from Comcast to try to get you to give up or abandon the idea, but is completely meaningless from a revenue perspective. Comcast's problem isn't that they can't afford to provide the service you paid for without the caps, it's that they're oversubscribing their backbone so heavily that they would never be able to do it from a technical perspective. The reality is most people don't hit that cap, so the cap is actually meaningless and does nothing for large consumers. It's just a consumer-hostile practice, where Comcast is trying to take ten miles where they were given an inch. This FCC is just going to codify it though, the FCC has been in the pocket of one provider or another for the last 15 years at least.

betaby 3y ago
Any proof of that? Especially 'customer-hostile QoS'. I don't like the monopolies like the other guy, but QoS/CoS has very technical meaning and this is a technical forum.
- jandrese 3y ago
  "Customer-hostile QoS" really only has one possible meaning. They de-prioritize your data after some threshold. The extra $30/month would be for "actually unlimited" since removing the QoS means you never get de-prioritized. This might be better than the alternative where there is no $30/month service but all data defaults to the lowest priority and you need the extra device to get reasonable performance when the network is busy. But then one wonders why someone couldn't just set up their home router to tag all packets at the highest priority, why do they need this device in the consumer's home at all instead of doing it in the CO?
  - tristor 3y ago
    They ignore QoS tagging from non-Comcast devices, FYI. I've tried that trick of tagging all my traffic as DSCP 30 (Flash High), and it gets reset to 0 (Best Effort) as soon as it crosses the head-end. This is unfortunately also commonplace for providers and an annoyance to businesses in our new post-pandemic world where they need to appropriate tag collab/voip traffic and it gets reset along the way. Lumen (formerly Level 3) often resets to best effort as soon as you cross into their transit edge from your ISP. These values often do not get carried across peering relationships. QoS across the Internet is not guaranteed. In the case I'm talking about, it really only matters how Comcast's network treats their direct customers, not how you get treated after, and they absolutely ignore customer QoS (at least on residential links).
    - jandrese 3y ago
      That makes me wonder how it can distinguish between a Comcast and non-Comcast device on the network. If this were built into the Cable Modem it would be reasonably doable, but if it's a separate box entirely I'm not sure.
      - tristor 3y ago
        The CPE (Customer Premise Equipment) /is/ the cable modem, as well as a WiFi router. Another thing it does is provide an authenticated SSID for WiFi that is available to other Comcast customers and utilized to boost coverage for Comcast's mobile offerings, via built-in WiFi profiles. The basic understanding I have is that you get free "unlimited" with the Comcast CPE, because they got sued and lost due to the provided authenticated WiFi being used by other customers to utilized what would otherwise be part of your data cap, so they had to lift the cap when they provided the equipment. Since your own equipment doesn't provide the Xfinity WiFi SSID, you must pay to lift the cap. I did a quick search and couldn't find what I was looking for, but it looks like in 12 states they were prevented until 2022 for enforcing the data cap, and there's a pending class action suit in California related to the WiFi impact on data caps: https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/comcast-hit-class-action-xfinity-public-wi-fi/ https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news... Anyway, that's my understanding. The net-net is I coughed up the $30/mo because I have no alternatives to Comcast (even at lower speeds) because my landlord has an exclusivity contract with them, and I don't want their shit-tier CPE anyway, especially throttling my traffic and broadcasting a WiFi SSID I don't control. My entire network is proper SME enterprise-grade rackmount gear and I have WiFi 6E throughout my house that is secured to only allow devices I control/allow to connect.
- tristor 3y ago
  I don't have any proof I can share, as I only had the box provided by them for a month prior to ponying up the $30/mo fee to run my own equipment w/ unlimited and that was over a year ago. I'm well aware of the technical meaning of QoS. My specific claim is that Comcast uses their provided CPE to de-prioritize traffic which is throughput heavy like downloads of updates/games via Xbox Live, Steam, etc and to prioritize traffic which is most noticeable to users (Netflix, VOIP) and they implement throttling. You could argue that this is perfectly reasonable and what you would expect from network behavior anyway, but I see it as customer-hostile because I pay for a certain amount of throughput to be available to me and I want the ISP to act as a dumb pipe and leave it up to me to make these types of decisions, and not to have traffic de-prioritized or throttled at their whim. I had a 20% increase in average throughput downloading games via Steam using my own equipment vs the Comcast provided equipment with no other changes, as an example of the direct impacts. The purpose for Comcast doing this is network management on their part, they heavily oversubscribe their service and use network management techniques to apportion available throughput in whatever way is most advantageous to Comcast. You can make whatever argument you want that Comcast's behavior is reasonable and necessary or that this isn't consumer-hostile. You won't convince me. I pay for gigabit connectivity, I should get gigabit connectivity. If they can't offer gigabit connectivity, they shouldn't offer it, rather than lying to me and then penalizing my traffic. It's that simple. Companies can't take a product to market they're incapable of actually offering and then act like it's the customer's fault, it's fraud. Nearly every residential ISP in the US behaves in these ways, it's not unique to Comcast, and it's not aligned to what is promised and offered in their advertising/contracts.
tonyb 3y ago
That's not how QoS works on a DOCSIS network. DOCSIS QOS is controlled via the DOCSIS config file and is applied to any cable modem, it is part of the standard that all cable modems - so any QOS that would be applied to Comcast supplied modem would also be applied to a customer provided modem. I don't have any specific knowledge of how Comcast does or doesn't do throttling on their network but it is very unlikely that is happening via the CPE. They may be doing some QOS via PCMM (PacketCable MultiMedia) but that is often used to manage congestion on the cable network and not the backhaul/transport side.
- tristor 3y ago
  You're correct that there is also DOCSIS QOS being performed and this happens regardless of who supplied the modem, this affects traffic between the modem and the head-end, but past the head-end traffic is shaped using other techniques. QoS is protocol specific, and based on the behavior I've observed I believe they are doing application classification and doing IP QoS on the CPE in addition to any DOCSIS QoS applied regardless. I'm a little rusty on my understanding of the DOCSIS specs, but this is a L2 protocol and QoS applied here isn't based on application classification, AFAIK.

betaby 3y ago

Any proof of that? Especially 'customer-hostile QoS'. I don't like the monopolies like the other guy, but QoS/CoS has very technical meaning and this is a technical forum.

jandrese 3y ago
"Customer-hostile QoS" really only has one possible meaning. They de-prioritize your data after some threshold. The extra $30/month would be for "actually unlimited" since removing the QoS means you never get de-prioritized. This might be better than the alternative where there is no $30/month service but all data defaults to the lowest priority and you need the extra device to get reasonable performance when the network is busy. But then one wonders why someone couldn't just set up their home router to tag all packets at the highest priority, why do they need this device in the consumer's home at all instead of doing it in the CO?
- tristor 3y ago
  They ignore QoS tagging from non-Comcast devices, FYI. I've tried that trick of tagging all my traffic as DSCP 30 (Flash High), and it gets reset to 0 (Best Effort) as soon as it crosses the head-end. This is unfortunately also commonplace for providers and an annoyance to businesses in our new post-pandemic world where they need to appropriate tag collab/voip traffic and it gets reset along the way. Lumen (formerly Level 3) often resets to best effort as soon as you cross into their transit edge from your ISP. These values often do not get carried across peering relationships. QoS across the Internet is not guaranteed. In the case I'm talking about, it really only matters how Comcast's network treats their direct customers, not how you get treated after, and they absolutely ignore customer QoS (at least on residential links).
  - jandrese 3y ago
    That makes me wonder how it can distinguish between a Comcast and non-Comcast device on the network. If this were built into the Cable Modem it would be reasonably doable, but if it's a separate box entirely I'm not sure.
    - tristor 3y ago
      The CPE (Customer Premise Equipment) /is/ the cable modem, as well as a WiFi router. Another thing it does is provide an authenticated SSID for WiFi that is available to other Comcast customers and utilized to boost coverage for Comcast's mobile offerings, via built-in WiFi profiles. The basic understanding I have is that you get free "unlimited" with the Comcast CPE, because they got sued and lost due to the provided authenticated WiFi being used by other customers to utilized what would otherwise be part of your data cap, so they had to lift the cap when they provided the equipment. Since your own equipment doesn't provide the Xfinity WiFi SSID, you must pay to lift the cap. I did a quick search and couldn't find what I was looking for, but it looks like in 12 states they were prevented until 2022 for enforcing the data cap, and there's a pending class action suit in California related to the WiFi impact on data caps: https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/comcast-hit-class-action-xfinity-public-wi-fi/ https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news... Anyway, that's my understanding. The net-net is I coughed up the $30/mo because I have no alternatives to Comcast (even at lower speeds) because my landlord has an exclusivity contract with them, and I don't want their shit-tier CPE anyway, especially throttling my traffic and broadcasting a WiFi SSID I don't control. My entire network is proper SME enterprise-grade rackmount gear and I have WiFi 6E throughout my house that is secured to only allow devices I control/allow to connect.
tristor 3y ago
I don't have any proof I can share, as I only had the box provided by them for a month prior to ponying up the $30/mo fee to run my own equipment w/ unlimited and that was over a year ago. I'm well aware of the technical meaning of QoS. My specific claim is that Comcast uses their provided CPE to de-prioritize traffic which is throughput heavy like downloads of updates/games via Xbox Live, Steam, etc and to prioritize traffic which is most noticeable to users (Netflix, VOIP) and they implement throttling. You could argue that this is perfectly reasonable and what you would expect from network behavior anyway, but I see it as customer-hostile because I pay for a certain amount of throughput to be available to me and I want the ISP to act as a dumb pipe and leave it up to me to make these types of decisions, and not to have traffic de-prioritized or throttled at their whim. I had a 20% increase in average throughput downloading games via Steam using my own equipment vs the Comcast provided equipment with no other changes, as an example of the direct impacts. The purpose for Comcast doing this is network management on their part, they heavily oversubscribe their service and use network management techniques to apportion available throughput in whatever way is most advantageous to Comcast. You can make whatever argument you want that Comcast's behavior is reasonable and necessary or that this isn't consumer-hostile. You won't convince me. I pay for gigabit connectivity, I should get gigabit connectivity. If they can't offer gigabit connectivity, they shouldn't offer it, rather than lying to me and then penalizing my traffic. It's that simple. Companies can't take a product to market they're incapable of actually offering and then act like it's the customer's fault, it's fraud. Nearly every residential ISP in the US behaves in these ways, it's not unique to Comcast, and it's not aligned to what is promised and offered in their advertising/contracts.

tonyb 3y ago

That's not how QoS works on a DOCSIS network. DOCSIS QOS is controlled via the DOCSIS config file and is applied to any cable modem, it is part of the standard that all cable modems - so any QOS that would be applied to Comcast supplied modem would also be applied to a customer provided modem. I don't have any specific knowledge of how Comcast does or doesn't do throttling on their network but it is very unlikely that is happening via the CPE. They may be doing some QOS via PCMM (PacketCable MultiMedia) but that is often used to manage congestion on the cable network and not the backhaul/transport side.

tristor 3y ago
You're correct that there is also DOCSIS QOS being performed and this happens regardless of who supplied the modem, this affects traffic between the modem and the head-end, but past the head-end traffic is shaped using other techniques. QoS is protocol specific, and based on the behavior I've observed I believe they are doing application classification and doing IP QoS on the CPE in addition to any DOCSIS QoS applied regardless. I'm a little rusty on my understanding of the DOCSIS specs, but this is a L2 protocol and QoS applied here isn't based on application classification, AFAIK.