4 ms·

Speaking up is a career limiting move in the short term. In the long term you have survivorship bias. The people that speak up tend to not be there for long. No

Speaking up is a career limiting move in the short term. In the long term you have survivorship bias. The people that speak up tend to not be there for long. Not directly because they're fired, but indirectly because they get frustrated. Even if it's designed correctly initially, the areas has a permanent bull-eyes for someone's promo packet to go and optimize.

JohnFen 3y ago
> Speaking up is a career limiting move in the short term. What do you mean by "career limiting"? Just at the company in question, perhaps, but speaking up like that should be considered a good thing. If it's not, why would you want to continue working there?
- temp_account_11 3y ago
  > What do you mean by "career limiting"? Career limiting means you'll see less career advancements. > speaking up like that should be considered a good thing. Agreed. But in practice it's unfortunately not always seen that way. > If it's not, why would you want to continue working there? Because I weight several factors when deciding where to work and there are other benefits to working here.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Career limiting means you'll see less career advancements. So you mean career-limiting at that particular company? I understand. Thanks!
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      You may also get a bit of a reputation that may follow you around. In areas with very close knit industries it can hurt your opportunities.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Yes, it might! But there are lots of employers who value employees who are focused on customer experience. It's probably limited my opportunities some, but I can't really tell. There are plenty of opportunities out there, and if a company doesn't want me because I'm willing to be honest and argue for what I think is right, then that's a company I don't want to work for anyway. So it all works out for the best for everybody.
        temp_account_11 3y ago
        I totally understand and respect your ideals. I wish more people were like you. But at the same time you fail the see the nuance for why others might make a different decision. I think it's reasonable for someone to take a moral stance here, and I can also respect someone that choses to stay at the job that's the best at providing for their family. That's the insight I was providing.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        > But at the same time you fail the see the nuance for why others might make a different decision. Umm, I totally see why others would decide differently. Everyone makes their own choices and trade-offs. I was just trying to point out that if the objection is that doing those sorts of things is a career-killer, that's objectively not true. It might mean that certain specific companies won't like you, but you won't be rejected by the industry overall.
- scrum-treats 3y ago
  Other employers call to learn how your previous employment was at Amazon, and Amazon talks mad trash about you and makes up whatever they want is basically the deal. Like a cult, and you are ostracized from that cult.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Amazon talks mad trash about you and makes up whatever they want is basically the deal I doubt Amazon does this. It would expose them to too much legal risk. Almost no large employers (in the US) will say much more than "This person worked here from date X to date Y and they (are/are not) eligible for rehire." Not being eligible for rehire is a black mark with many potential employers, of course. But then, having Amazon in your work history is also a black mark with some employers. Nobody is desirable to all potential employers.
    - scrum-treats 3y ago
      > I doubt Amazon does this. It would expose them to too much legal risk. Almost no large employers (in the US) will say much more than "This person worked here from date X to date Y and they (are/are not) eligible for rehire." You are overlooking the salient fact that managers and recruiters know each other from one company to another. Backend conversations matter.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Speaking up is a career limiting move in the short term. What do you mean by "career limiting"? Just at the company in question, perhaps, but speaking up like that should be considered a good thing. If it's not, why would you want to continue working there?

temp_account_11 3y ago
> What do you mean by "career limiting"? Career limiting means you'll see less career advancements. > speaking up like that should be considered a good thing. Agreed. But in practice it's unfortunately not always seen that way. > If it's not, why would you want to continue working there? Because I weight several factors when deciding where to work and there are other benefits to working here.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Career limiting means you'll see less career advancements. So you mean career-limiting at that particular company? I understand. Thanks!
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    You may also get a bit of a reputation that may follow you around. In areas with very close knit industries it can hurt your opportunities.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Yes, it might! But there are lots of employers who value employees who are focused on customer experience. It's probably limited my opportunities some, but I can't really tell. There are plenty of opportunities out there, and if a company doesn't want me because I'm willing to be honest and argue for what I think is right, then that's a company I don't want to work for anyway. So it all works out for the best for everybody.
      - temp_account_11 3y ago
        I totally understand and respect your ideals. I wish more people were like you. But at the same time you fail the see the nuance for why others might make a different decision. I think it's reasonable for someone to take a moral stance here, and I can also respect someone that choses to stay at the job that's the best at providing for their family. That's the insight I was providing.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        > But at the same time you fail the see the nuance for why others might make a different decision. Umm, I totally see why others would decide differently. Everyone makes their own choices and trade-offs. I was just trying to point out that if the objection is that doing those sorts of things is a career-killer, that's objectively not true. It might mean that certain specific companies won't like you, but you won't be rejected by the industry overall.
scrum-treats 3y ago
Other employers call to learn how your previous employment was at Amazon, and Amazon talks mad trash about you and makes up whatever they want is basically the deal. Like a cult, and you are ostracized from that cult.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Amazon talks mad trash about you and makes up whatever they want is basically the deal I doubt Amazon does this. It would expose them to too much legal risk. Almost no large employers (in the US) will say much more than "This person worked here from date X to date Y and they (are/are not) eligible for rehire." Not being eligible for rehire is a black mark with many potential employers, of course. But then, having Amazon in your work history is also a black mark with some employers. Nobody is desirable to all potential employers.
  - scrum-treats 3y ago
    > I doubt Amazon does this. It would expose them to too much legal risk. Almost no large employers (in the US) will say much more than "This person worked here from date X to date Y and they (are/are not) eligible for rehire." You are overlooking the salient fact that managers and recruiters know each other from one company to another. Backend conversations matter.