4 ms·

What the New, Low Test Scores for 13-Year-Olds Say About U.S. Education Now

7 points by asnyder 3y ago

NickC25 3y ago
Any non-paywall version available? Would love to read this in full. Without reading it though, my personal hunch as to why this is happening is a perfect storm of a generation of teachers conditioned by the idiotic NCLB act mixed with a generation of kids who were given their stressed-out parent's smart phone to play around with before they could even speak. Plus, over that same time period, so many have left teaching as a profession because the conditions are simply awful - no support from ever-growing administration, criminally low pay, awful health care, terrible parents, distracted kids, and a teach-to-the-test mentality that has come full circle to become the enemy it sought to defeat. That's to also say nothing of the fact that certain academic subjects are hyper-politicized for absolutely no reason, which in the age of social media keyboard warriors and divisive politics backed by big donors (whose interests absolutely do not run parallel with the country's best long-term interests) makes things even worse for teachers. No wonder our educational system is failing. We really need to rethink our educational policies as a society, and what we need to do to get to where we need to be. HN, feel free to take a crack at what we need to do to get this country's education system back on track. If you folks can't solve it, I really doubt our representatives in various state houses and in DC can do so.
- Arnt 3y ago
  If the URL is https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/naep-test-results-education.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/naep-test-results-educ... then you can find a version without a paywall at https://archive.is/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/naep-test-results-education.html https://archive.is/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/nae... Deriving a general algorithm for forming the second link from the first is left to the reader, whose test scores are assumed to be nonzero ;)
- warrenm 3y ago
  >teachers conditioned by the idiotic NCLB act mixed with a generation of kids who were given their stressed-out parent's smart phone to play around with Don't forget idiotic teacher unions
  - NickC25 3y ago
    100%. Teachers unions aren't staffed by teachers. The goal of the union is to preserve the union's power, nothing more, nothing less. I'm all for teachers unionizing and fighting for better pay, better funding, and things that actually have a demonstrable better outcome for students AND teachers. I get that teachers get attacked by politicians, especially by those on the far right whose goals for education are limited to using education as a vessel to promote the bible. Fuck those people. But I don't like how the union doesn't always act in the best interests of teachers, students, and the education of our youth.
    - koolba 3y ago
      I’m adamantly against any union who’s members are employees paid by tax dollars. Doesn’t matter if it’s police, fire, teachers or dog catchers. Having a collective bargaining agreement where one side of the table isn’t on the hook for the actual bill invariably ends up with self preserving administrative bureaucracy.
      - nsajko 3y ago
        > against any union who’s members are employees paid by tax dollars I don't see the distinction. What's the difference between public and private sector employees? > one side of the table isn’t on the hook for the actual bill So you're actually against unions in general?
        koolba 3y ago
        > I don't see the distinction. What's the difference between public and private sector employees? Public sector union contracts are negotiated with elected officials. Parties in power make concessions to those unions to gain the electoral support of their members using tax dollars as the funding source. Once granted, it's nearly impossible to walk away from a bad deal. We end up with unfunded obligations as the bill tossed to future generations. They're effectively buying votes with your tax dollars. And that's just the money angle. On the service front, they make non-monetary concessions like the inability to fire bad teachers without going through an all but impossible multi-year process. > So you're actually against unions in general? Not at all. Private sector companies pay their own bills. They're free to enter whatever agreements they'd like because tax payers are not on the hook for the results. If they enter an unsustainable agreement, the company will simply go bankrupt. If they think it's advantageous to enter a collective bargaining agreement then they're free to do so.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- vondur 3y ago
  At least her in California, Teachers generally have excellent benefits (health care) and for the most part are paid ok. The cost of living in these areas is the issue as for everyone else. (My wife was a teacher until a couple of years ago)
- majormajor 3y ago
  You can't do this without fixing the parents first. Whether that's the too-involved ones or not-involved-enough ones. You have to get rid of credentialism and entitlement for the too-involved ones, and convince them that their child will only get out of school what they put in. The not involved enough ones are probably even harder, you have to convince them that something can change if the kids put in the work after so many years of it really not mattering that much, since the kids with the too-involved parents are just doing still-that-much-more and are doing things you don't have the money or time to do to pad the college resume. If you don't convince those groups, you don't have a chance of enforcing things policy-wise on those parents.
  - nsajko 3y ago
    What do you mean by "too-involved"?
    - warrenm 3y ago
      I suspect he means the so-called "helicopter parents" and their close relatives
    - majormajor 3y ago
      Stuff like this: https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/grade-grubbing-parents/ https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/grade-grubbing-pare... Demanding that your kid get higher grades, be included in things, etc. That they deserve things. And showing up on college campuses, at job interviews, etc. Or aggressively policing curriculum, especially of the "you were perfectly happy and trusting of the officials you elected until it was your kid" variety. If you don't let your children learn from their mistakes, or be exposed to things you don't like, as children it's just going to happen with more severe consequences as adults. It also adds another pain point to the job of being a teacher, which is just gonna drive more people away and harm education in that way.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ianbutler 3y ago
I mean from my standpoint, adminstrative and standardized driven teaching has failed us in America. Combine that with our elected officials on both sides of the aisle and throughout all levels of government who'd rather play power games than actually lead and I'm not surprised we are where we are. Say what you want about the alternative power structures in other countries, they deserve all the criticism they get for some very real reasons, but sometimes being able to unilaterally force through changes seems really appealing.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  You need some level of standardization, otherwise it's difficult to judge on a contextual manner if a student at HS A is a better candidate than a student at HS 1. But the bigger issue is definetly the salaries - School Districts are at the mercy of local tax regimes and a bit of federal and state funding. Due to this, salaries remain low as it's politically untenable to give meaningful raises. Add to that, a College Degree for Educators is expensive (around $70-100k in tuition alone) given the salaries ($30-70k starting depending on the school district) You get what you pay for I guess

7 points by asnyder 3y ago

Any non-paywall version available? Would love to read this in full. Without reading it though, my personal hunch as to why this is happening is a perfect storm of a generation of teachers conditioned by the idiotic NCLB act mixed with a generation of kids who were given their stressed-out parent's smart phone to play around with before they could even speak. Plus, over that same time period, so many have left teaching as a profession because the conditions are simply awful - no support from ever-growing administration, criminally low pay, awful health care, terrible parents, distracted kids, and a teach-to-the-test mentality that has come full circle to become the enemy it sought to defeat. That's to also say nothing of the fact that certain academic subjects are hyper-politicized for absolutely no reason, which in the age of social media keyboard warriors and divisive politics backed by big donors (whose interests absolutely do not run parallel with the country's best long-term interests) makes things even worse for teachers. No wonder our educational system is failing. We really need to rethink our educational policies as a society, and what we need to do to get to where we need to be. HN, feel free to take a crack at what we need to do to get this country's education system back on track. If you folks can't solve it, I really doubt our representatives in various state houses and in DC can do so.

Arnt 3y ago
If the URL is https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/naep-test-results-education.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/naep-test-results-educ... then you can find a version without a paywall at https://archive.is/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/naep-test-results-education.html https://archive.is/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/us/nae... Deriving a general algorithm for forming the second link from the first is left to the reader, whose test scores are assumed to be nonzero ;)
warrenm 3y ago
>teachers conditioned by the idiotic NCLB act mixed with a generation of kids who were given their stressed-out parent's smart phone to play around with Don't forget idiotic teacher unions
- NickC25 3y ago
  100%. Teachers unions aren't staffed by teachers. The goal of the union is to preserve the union's power, nothing more, nothing less. I'm all for teachers unionizing and fighting for better pay, better funding, and things that actually have a demonstrable better outcome for students AND teachers. I get that teachers get attacked by politicians, especially by those on the far right whose goals for education are limited to using education as a vessel to promote the bible. Fuck those people. But I don't like how the union doesn't always act in the best interests of teachers, students, and the education of our youth.
  - koolba 3y ago
    I’m adamantly against any union who’s members are employees paid by tax dollars. Doesn’t matter if it’s police, fire, teachers or dog catchers. Having a collective bargaining agreement where one side of the table isn’t on the hook for the actual bill invariably ends up with self preserving administrative bureaucracy.
    - nsajko 3y ago
      > against any union who’s members are employees paid by tax dollars I don't see the distinction. What's the difference between public and private sector employees? > one side of the table isn’t on the hook for the actual bill So you're actually against unions in general?
      - koolba 3y ago
        > I don't see the distinction. What's the difference between public and private sector employees? Public sector union contracts are negotiated with elected officials. Parties in power make concessions to those unions to gain the electoral support of their members using tax dollars as the funding source. Once granted, it's nearly impossible to walk away from a bad deal. We end up with unfunded obligations as the bill tossed to future generations. They're effectively buying votes with your tax dollars. And that's just the money angle. On the service front, they make non-monetary concessions like the inability to fire bad teachers without going through an all but impossible multi-year process. > So you're actually against unions in general? Not at all. Private sector companies pay their own bills. They're free to enter whatever agreements they'd like because tax payers are not on the hook for the results. If they enter an unsustainable agreement, the company will simply go bankrupt. If they think it's advantageous to enter a collective bargaining agreement then they're free to do so.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vondur 3y ago
At least her in California, Teachers generally have excellent benefits (health care) and for the most part are paid ok. The cost of living in these areas is the issue as for everyone else. (My wife was a teacher until a couple of years ago)
majormajor 3y ago
You can't do this without fixing the parents first. Whether that's the too-involved ones or not-involved-enough ones. You have to get rid of credentialism and entitlement for the too-involved ones, and convince them that their child will only get out of school what they put in. The not involved enough ones are probably even harder, you have to convince them that something can change if the kids put in the work after so many years of it really not mattering that much, since the kids with the too-involved parents are just doing still-that-much-more and are doing things you don't have the money or time to do to pad the college resume. If you don't convince those groups, you don't have a chance of enforcing things policy-wise on those parents.
- nsajko 3y ago
  What do you mean by "too-involved"?
  - warrenm 3y ago
    I suspect he means the so-called "helicopter parents" and their close relatives
  - majormajor 3y ago
    Stuff like this: https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/grade-grubbing-parents/ https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/grade-grubbing-pare... Demanding that your kid get higher grades, be included in things, etc. That they deserve things. And showing up on college campuses, at job interviews, etc. Or aggressively policing curriculum, especially of the "you were perfectly happy and trusting of the officials you elected until it was your kid" variety. If you don't let your children learn from their mistakes, or be exposed to things you don't like, as children it's just going to happen with more severe consequences as adults. It also adds another pain point to the job of being a teacher, which is just gonna drive more people away and harm education in that way.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ianbutler 3y ago

I mean from my standpoint, adminstrative and standardized driven teaching has failed us in America. Combine that with our elected officials on both sides of the aisle and throughout all levels of government who'd rather play power games than actually lead and I'm not surprised we are where we are. Say what you want about the alternative power structures in other countries, they deserve all the criticism they get for some very real reasons, but sometimes being able to unilaterally force through changes seems really appealing.

alephnerd 3y ago
You need some level of standardization, otherwise it's difficult to judge on a contextual manner if a student at HS A is a better candidate than a student at HS 1. But the bigger issue is definetly the salaries - School Districts are at the mercy of local tax regimes and a bit of federal and state funding. Due to this, salaries remain low as it's politically untenable to give meaningful raises. Add to that, a College Degree for Educators is expensive (around $70-100k in tuition alone) given the salaries ($30-70k starting depending on the school district) You get what you pay for I guess