4 ms·

You're doing two-factor authentication wrong because of not allowing me to use a single factor only (maybe I do not want to check e-mail and/or to carry smartph

You're doing two-factor authentication wrong because of not allowing me to use a single factor only (maybe I do not want to check e-mail and/or to carry smartphone with me and/or your website has too miserable value to me to take care about it).

cyberbanjo 3y ago
In that case, doesn't your password manager support TOTP?
- alias_neo 3y ago
  You missed their point, they might not want to carry a smartphone and 2FA requires you to _have_ something.
  - j-pb 3y ago
    You missed their point, accessing a website also requires you to have _something_, namely a device with a browser. If you have a device with a browser, then you have a device with a password manager. Unless you only access that site via public infrastructure like a library, but that might not be infrastructure that you want confidential information to run over, because everybody and the milkman has access to it. And even then, 1Password for example also has an online version that you can access in those cases.
    - b112 3y ago
      No, you missed the point that the point was pointing to. A paasword manager is also "your brain". A website can be happy with just a password. For crying out loud, people don't need 2fa for a knitting forum!
      - sigio 3y ago
        The password manager being 'your brain' implies that you have only a hand-full of passwords... my brain has no way of remembering 1000+ passwords and logins, while I prefer to use random usernames and passwords. Sure, I don't need 2fa for a knitting forum, but I still need something to remember my login and password... try to never re-use either.
        b112 3y ago
        I have two categories of passwords. One for knitting forum class, and one for password manager class. No, it isn't a crisis if someone gets my credentials to the knitting forum, the pics of acrons forum, and the local 'reserve space at the county pool' website... all in one go. I can just change them all at once, from the letter 'a' to the letter 'b'.
        alias_neo 3y ago
        To further support your argument, I'd suggest that requiring a login at all for this class of "service" is bullshit. I've set the bar pretty low these days for "if you require a login, I go somewhere else" because there are plenty of places that just don't need it in my opinion. To be honest, I class Twitter as one of those places; I go there to read certain information from specific "outlets" but Twitter as we all know have made it very difficult (as with other social sites of this type) to be read-only.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      2FA is about _proving_ you have something. For someone else to prove they have that same thing they have to physically steal it from you and possess it at the time of authentication.
    - chromanoid 3y ago
      You are probably not lazy enough ;). I even hate to generate a password for a site. Having to open an authenticator app is too much of a hassle to be worth it for many sites. And it doesn't really make sense if the second factor is available on the same device...
    - oneeyedpigeon 3y ago
      > If you have a device with a browser, then you have a device with a password manager. I dispute that. Does the Nintendo Switch have a password manager?
      - j-pb 3y ago
        Yes. 1Password works via the browser as I mentioned.
        eimrine 3y ago
        I would not trust and/or bind to online services that much.
    - eimrine 3y ago
      > You missed their point, accessing a website also requires you to have _something_, namely a device with a browser. If you have a device with a browser, then you have a device with a password manager. My point from the root of this tree was that I do not want to make a shit travel (github asks me to prove identiny by mail > gmail asks me to prove my identity by phone > my phone is somewhere else because I am not addicted to it) just to have an ability to use my github from web-interface. If I can successfully use my bitcoins without any 2fa/totp security theater than github is just shitting me with no good reason for me and for my helloworlds collection. Probably just saving cookies solves the problem of the shit travel, but since every few hours session of browsing makes me to store tens megabytes of cookies with no value to me (except of not un-logging from github) I use to clear all cookies every time I close my browser.
- masklinn 3y ago
  Hell you can literally run TOTP via pen and paper if you want to (though you probably need to compute it a few windows in advance, especially with the hmac_sha1).
  - eimrine 3y ago
    The world is too complicated already to care that much about some insignificant websites.
alias_neo 3y ago
I see you're being downvoted, but I see your point. Twitter has so little value to me, I don't see the point in requiring the extra security (for me). I guess if you're some sort of public figure it might be, but selling blue badges to anyone kinda destroyed any credibility it had as a platform for those people.
- catmanjan 3y ago
  The problem is these platforms double as identity providers so your twitter hacked can give access to other websites - it’s crazy that this was ever a thing
  - megous 3y ago
    That's still often times an optional feature, so if you don't want to use it as IDP, you may not want to opt in to 2FA.
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  Ubisoft's UPlay tries to get me to sign up for 2-factor every now and then. For some it might be a good idea, if they have a large library and maybe use their account on internet cafes and such. But they have a "Skip" button which so far works just fine. And I'm very happy it's there. So regardless of other merits, at least Ubisoft did that right with UPlay.
- EGreg 3y ago
  When we were implementing blockchain-based voting, we assumed that since people trust banking apps with their money, they should be able to trust a crypto wallet with their vote. But the biggest security flaw, it turns out, is systemic, not individual: people simply don’t care about securing their one measly vote as much as they care about securing $100,000 in their bank. So while people were motivated to secure large individual balances, they were not motivated to secure their votes. Which is why we have to force people to confirm their votes on another device, so that Apple or Google couldn’t theoretically steal the election by lying to you about who you voted for, let alone some random website like stackoverflow (which people trust in their moderator elections etc.) It turns out that this is also necessary for Web3 — the current state of security is dismal, the vast majority of people don’t actually check they are interfacing with the right contract or calling the right method or sending the right parameters before they hit “Submit” to sign the transaction. So even there, people have to be forced to double-check the details on another device, depending on the value of the transaction. For more info see my article from 2020: https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2020/03/12/in-defense-of-blockchain-voting/?outputType=amp https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2020/03/12/in-defense-of-block...
chromanoid 3y ago
I totally agree. But I also hate to add a password for each shitty website. I also don't want to connect an account via e.g. OIDC with any of my important accounts. I think there is a product or at least a new common mechanic somewhere in this mess.
- shortcake27 3y ago
  Passkeys solve exactly your complaints. They’re being pushed heavily by Apple and Google, so very soon you’ll be able to sign up for sites without having to set a password + MFA.
  - chromanoid 3y ago
    But won't this just use Google Sign In in the end. This will give the shitty website at least my OpenId data from Google and enables social engineering with my important account?
plaguepilled 3y ago
This is the unfortunate truth about 2FA. While it significantly improves security, it is significantly less ergonomic than passwords (which are already sucky). It is also a problem when phones are, for whatever reason, not ideal for the work environment.

cyberbanjo 3y ago

In that case, doesn't your password manager support TOTP?

alias_neo 3y ago
You missed their point, they might not want to carry a smartphone and 2FA requires you to _have_ something.
- j-pb 3y ago
  You missed their point, accessing a website also requires you to have _something_, namely a device with a browser. If you have a device with a browser, then you have a device with a password manager. Unless you only access that site via public infrastructure like a library, but that might not be infrastructure that you want confidential information to run over, because everybody and the milkman has access to it. And even then, 1Password for example also has an online version that you can access in those cases.
  - b112 3y ago
    No, you missed the point that the point was pointing to. A paasword manager is also "your brain". A website can be happy with just a password. For crying out loud, people don't need 2fa for a knitting forum!
    - sigio 3y ago
      The password manager being 'your brain' implies that you have only a hand-full of passwords... my brain has no way of remembering 1000+ passwords and logins, while I prefer to use random usernames and passwords. Sure, I don't need 2fa for a knitting forum, but I still need something to remember my login and password... try to never re-use either.
      - b112 3y ago
        I have two categories of passwords. One for knitting forum class, and one for password manager class. No, it isn't a crisis if someone gets my credentials to the knitting forum, the pics of acrons forum, and the local 'reserve space at the county pool' website... all in one go. I can just change them all at once, from the letter 'a' to the letter 'b'.
        alias_neo 3y ago
        To further support your argument, I'd suggest that requiring a login at all for this class of "service" is bullshit. I've set the bar pretty low these days for "if you require a login, I go somewhere else" because there are plenty of places that just don't need it in my opinion. To be honest, I class Twitter as one of those places; I go there to read certain information from specific "outlets" but Twitter as we all know have made it very difficult (as with other social sites of this type) to be read-only.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    2FA is about _proving_ you have something. For someone else to prove they have that same thing they have to physically steal it from you and possess it at the time of authentication.
  - chromanoid 3y ago
    You are probably not lazy enough ;). I even hate to generate a password for a site. Having to open an authenticator app is too much of a hassle to be worth it for many sites. And it doesn't really make sense if the second factor is available on the same device...
  - oneeyedpigeon 3y ago
    > If you have a device with a browser, then you have a device with a password manager. I dispute that. Does the Nintendo Switch have a password manager?
    - j-pb 3y ago
      Yes. 1Password works via the browser as I mentioned.
      - eimrine 3y ago
        I would not trust and/or bind to online services that much.
  - eimrine 3y ago
    > You missed their point, accessing a website also requires you to have _something_, namely a device with a browser. If you have a device with a browser, then you have a device with a password manager. My point from the root of this tree was that I do not want to make a shit travel (github asks me to prove identiny by mail > gmail asks me to prove my identity by phone > my phone is somewhere else because I am not addicted to it) just to have an ability to use my github from web-interface. If I can successfully use my bitcoins without any 2fa/totp security theater than github is just shitting me with no good reason for me and for my helloworlds collection. Probably just saving cookies solves the problem of the shit travel, but since every few hours session of browsing makes me to store tens megabytes of cookies with no value to me (except of not un-logging from github) I use to clear all cookies every time I close my browser.
masklinn 3y ago
Hell you can literally run TOTP via pen and paper if you want to (though you probably need to compute it a few windows in advance, especially with the hmac_sha1).
- eimrine 3y ago
  The world is too complicated already to care that much about some insignificant websites.

alias_neo 3y ago

I see you're being downvoted, but I see your point. Twitter has so little value to me, I don't see the point in requiring the extra security (for me). I guess if you're some sort of public figure it might be, but selling blue badges to anyone kinda destroyed any credibility it had as a platform for those people.

catmanjan 3y ago
The problem is these platforms double as identity providers so your twitter hacked can give access to other websites - it’s crazy that this was ever a thing
- megous 3y ago
  That's still often times an optional feature, so if you don't want to use it as IDP, you may not want to opt in to 2FA.
magicalhippo 3y ago
Ubisoft's UPlay tries to get me to sign up for 2-factor every now and then. For some it might be a good idea, if they have a large library and maybe use their account on internet cafes and such. But they have a "Skip" button which so far works just fine. And I'm very happy it's there. So regardless of other merits, at least Ubisoft did that right with UPlay.
EGreg 3y ago
When we were implementing blockchain-based voting, we assumed that since people trust banking apps with their money, they should be able to trust a crypto wallet with their vote. But the biggest security flaw, it turns out, is systemic, not individual: people simply don’t care about securing their one measly vote as much as they care about securing $100,000 in their bank. So while people were motivated to secure large individual balances, they were not motivated to secure their votes. Which is why we have to force people to confirm their votes on another device, so that Apple or Google couldn’t theoretically steal the election by lying to you about who you voted for, let alone some random website like stackoverflow (which people trust in their moderator elections etc.) It turns out that this is also necessary for Web3 — the current state of security is dismal, the vast majority of people don’t actually check they are interfacing with the right contract or calling the right method or sending the right parameters before they hit “Submit” to sign the transaction. So even there, people have to be forced to double-check the details on another device, depending on the value of the transaction. For more info see my article from 2020: https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2020/03/12/in-defense-of-blockchain-voting/?outputType=amp https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2020/03/12/in-defense-of-block...

chromanoid 3y ago

I totally agree. But I also hate to add a password for each shitty website. I also don't want to connect an account via e.g. OIDC with any of my important accounts. I think there is a product or at least a new common mechanic somewhere in this mess.

shortcake27 3y ago
Passkeys solve exactly your complaints. They’re being pushed heavily by Apple and Google, so very soon you’ll be able to sign up for sites without having to set a password + MFA.
- chromanoid 3y ago
  But won't this just use Google Sign In in the end. This will give the shitty website at least my OpenId data from Google and enables social engineering with my important account?

plaguepilled 3y ago

This is the unfortunate truth about 2FA. While it significantly improves security, it is significantly less ergonomic than passwords (which are already sucky). It is also a problem when phones are, for whatever reason, not ideal for the work environment.