7 ms·

Young adults who "lie flat" also see romantic relationships as unnecessary

29 points by amichail 3y ago

Our_Benefactors 3y ago
[flagged]
- jmoak3 3y ago
  I don’t think the flat’ers are happy about it all either, but what would you do if your future was either a hopeless grind or some degree of comfort? Booms are followed by busts, in the mightiest booms the future gets bought and sold as far as the eye can see and the stakeholders demand delivery at the expense of those who come along after. Sometimes you show up too late, reject the deal, and catch the bust as your peers join you - you just have to wait it out until your time is better spent. I’m thankful that I’m from a place with plenty of responsibility and land up for grabs, and that I stumbled into this industry. From what I can tell from reading casually, growing up today in many parts of the USA, China, or Seoul, or even Europe is a real struggle to claim reputation, responsibility, and assets for yourself.
  - FreshStart 3y ago
    If a system offers a bad deal not buying and keeping your resources is the best deal. Would layflatlanders migrate if they got the chance and then change their stance.
    - xyzzy123 3y ago
      The main resource you have when you're young is time. You can withhold it from "the system" but you don't get to keep it :(
      - FreshStart 3y ago
        In case of 966 you at least get to keep your sanity
- CapstanRoller 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Our_Benefactors 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - prewett 3y ago
      Xi Jinping has communicated that lying flat is not part of his vision. But, it can't be CCP propaganda. See, the key thing about the CCP (particularly Xi) is that the solution to a problem is always more control. The State is always telling you how to live your life--note that Chinese media uses a lot of terms like "should" and "correct", even when talking to foreign countries. Lying flat takes back personal control from the State, by refusing to participate in society, so it actually opposes the CCP's core value.
    - yhavr 3y ago
      > Being lazy isn’t an alternative path to working hard It's exactly is. It's funny that people don't see the double standards of capitalist economy. When you're a business, you strive to achieve more goods or money by spending less resources, labor or money. Which makes total sense, no complaints about this. So if you're an individual, applying this pattern, you also should strive to find ways to get more utility from less things. By practicing asceticism/minimalism, one looks exactly for a business-ish optimisation of life! To flourish using only a few things is the same as to build spaceships using small python script. Just imagine. One doesn't working hard, creating huge enterprise with tens thousands of workers. Just a few lines, and the spaceship is ready. How lazy the author of the script should be!
      - Our_Benefactors 3y ago
        You’ve misquoted me entirely - my point was that being lazy cannot improve your situation, while working hard may have a chance of doing so.
- skyyler 3y ago
  I talk to people every day that are essentially "lying flat" in the US. I can assure you that it's a global movement. There are incels on 4chan that discuss how to maintain their "NEET" lifestyle, and those are hardly the only people that want to circumvent the system of wage slavery that they were born into.
  - Bostonian 3y ago
    "wage slavery" Everyone depends on the output of others. Working so that you having something to give in exchange for what you get from others is not "slavery".
    - skyyler 3y ago
      I agree that everyone has to work to have something to give in exchange for what they get from others. I don't agree that the struggles poor people face in our current economic system source from this truth. I need you to tell me with sincerity that you think what Walmart and Amazon are doing to their rank-and-file employees isn't wage slavery.
    - scarmig 3y ago
      I don't think most people who use the term wage slavery (which does seem a distraction to me) think that any payment of wages for labor is a form of slavery. It's more about the perception or reality (take your pick) that those jobs don't offer a path to progression to a better life.
      - skeaker 3y ago
        I've understood the term to essentially mean that they are dissatisfied with the culture of "work or die." No money means starvation, homelessness, and death, so whether or not you're conscious of it you're essentially working with a gun to your head. I am very fortunate to have a nice job that treats me well, but I could see myself being very upset about wage slavery if my circumstances were different.
        3y ago
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  One propaganda campaigns are usually very obvious. Not by instinct but by just looking at the sources of things. Two, it's not cool nor in the CCP's best interest. It's their worst nightmare. It's young people deciding their economic situation is so bad that they might as well just give up and not provide labor. Urban youth unemployment is above 20% in china. Bleak as hell. Especially considering the grind of the education system and what it promised people.
- hgs3 3y ago
  > It’s not cool, or admirable to wallow in mediocrity. I never heard the term "lying flat" before this article, but I live that lifestyle and I'm not "wallowing in mediocrity." I code, make artwork, compose music, write fiction and non-fiction, and cook gourmet food. For years I miserably grinded for Big Corp and considered just ending it all. Since quitting my job my depression has lifted and I'm working 12+ hours a day pursuing my dreams. My sole motivation in life is to learn and create my visions. Materialism does not motivate me. Money is an obstacle, not the objective. If anything, being self-motivated to learn and produce should be the norm, greed and materialism should be shunned.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    It's funny, I had the same thought just a moment ago. I have decided that I will quit $BIGCORP and put my effort and mind into something actually useful for people. Maybe it's the place that i am, but given the evidence, I have updated my expectations over skill. I also don't have material needs, I might buy a cute top here and there, or a few books but that's it.
    - hgs3 3y ago
      If you have doubts, depending upon how you feel, you could consider speaking with your employer about working part time. Part time means more free time while still earning an income. Also consider how you might negotiate it: half-days five days a week are one thing and three full days (Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday) with the rest off is another.
      - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
        It's unlikely that a FAANG company will arrange such a situation for me, and given our current deadlines, it is unlikely that my manager will agree. I just want to write code. I hate the days when all I do is sit in meetings for pre meetings for pre meetings or write docs about docs about docs. edit: clarified on docs and meetings a bit.
        3y ago
- g8oz 3y ago
  It's actually the opposite. a grassroots form of opposition to CCP mandated growth targets.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  Is it really wallowing in mediocrity? I mean, I don't see my work as work, I see it as working in interesting and new tech, getting to play with interesting stuff and solve complex problems; and I do it for fun. When the fun stops because I am forced into crud or boring stuff, I'll just leave.
- yhavr 3y ago
  > lower living standards Not lower but different living standards. Also, please mind the context. Lying flatism is originated in China, that is famous for the absurd work-life balance. You know, work 6 days/week, 9am to 9pm or even stay later. Find a romantic partner, but spend time with them only Saturday evenings and on Sundays. Bring kids into this amazing lifestyle, see them also on Sundays (the rest of time, grandparents will take care of them). It's kinda obvious that people started to understand that something is going wrong and now are testing the way to fix it.
- lisasays 3y ago
  I'm not sure it's a "movement" either, but from what I understand it's not at all about "wallowing in mediocrity". Rather it is simply a rejection of the pervasive cult of meritocratic / hustle-culture propaganda -- which defines anything that questions (let alone has the temerity to directly oppose) its tenets as ... the sure path to mediocrity. Coupled with an observation that is the former which itself fosters mediocrity (and worse) in spheres that truly matter (health, relationships, personal fulfillment).
- asdf6677 3y ago
  When the measure of success is how much money you get to make for other people I don’t think “mediocrity” is the right word. Maybe 5% of people will ever be successful by an objective metric, and the rest are just trying to be a good little wagie for their boss
olliej 3y ago
Can we match the article title and put quotes around "lying flatism" because without the quotation marks or existing knowledge of the term this sentence is aneurysm inducing.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping
thatfrenchguy 3y ago
[flagged]
- jimmywatersabc 3y ago
  [flagged]
- asdf6677 3y ago
  Also because being single as a man means you weren’t good enough (bad) but being single as a woman means you have high standards (good)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- patrulek 3y ago
  Women are not afraid of being single because they have government as a second father behind their back and can find a new partner in a matter of days without any trouble.
- jameswaters123 3y ago
  [flagged]
- voldacar 3y ago
  Women have useless partners in 80% of cases? That seems a bit unhinged, don't you think?
RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
I had not heard the term "lie flat" before, and immediately thought it was trying to make enough money so that whenever you flew, you could always fly business class in "lie flat" seats.
euroderf 3y ago
Per the 60s technology-positive Zeitgeist, we were all supposed to have flying cars by now. Oh and also 15-hour workweeks. Maybe "lying flat" is about taking an honest stab at at least getting that second part, the workweek, sorted out.
nobodyandproud 3y ago
Is this similar to hikimori, minus some of the extreme social withdrawal? Is this the human equivalent of “the beautiful ones”, where the cut-throat resource hoarding and society’s enforcement of non-violence has lead to a somewhat different way of “checking out”? As soon as one kid or dependent is involved there’s great pressure to participate in the rat race.
asdf6677 3y ago
I’m one of these people. I think romantic relationships are extremely important for pragmatic reasons (housing affordability, having children, as a safety net, etc) but I choose not to date because I don’t know how to find anyone I actually like. I don’t understand how people get into relationships without treating dating like a job search. “Just put yourself out there”, “you’re overthinking it - a relationship will come when you least expect it” But what if that doesn’t work? I’m pretty sure eventually I’ll need to settle for whatever I can get and try to make things work out like it’s an arranged marriage I’m almost 30 years old and still in the closet because I feel like there’s no benefit to coming out. A straight and gay incel have the exact same life other than porn preferences. Maybe I’m just asexual.
- mrcrumb1 3y ago
  Most of the people I know that pursue relationships for purely pragmatic reasons and fail seem to forget that people won't fit into boxes because you want put them there. The people I see that are successful meet people where they are, and let their positions in their life reveal itself as they get to know the other person. I don't know if this applies to you or is even helpful, but it is a pattern I have noticed in my life.
  - asdf6677 3y ago
    Successful in pseudo arranged marriages, or just in general? I haven’t been in a relationship yet so I have no idea if this will even work
    - mrcrumb1 3y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean by pseudo arranged marriages. I mean successful at building new interpersonal relationships in general, and generally that translates into more opportunity for romantic relationships.
      - asdf6677 3y ago
        I mean people who settle for somebody they don’t have romantic feelings for because it’s a pragmatic decision
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
testmasterflex 3y ago
The price for this lifestyle is paid after midlife. What are you going to do in your older days without a family?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Whatever makes you happy. If you’re emotionally insecure or codependent, that could pose a problem of course (I recommend a therapist). But a family is by no means necessary to live a life that optimizes for high happiness levels.
  - screye 3y ago
    > If you’re emotionally insecure Everyone is emotionally insecure. Some people are pathological insecure and need treatment, but no one is a paragon of emotional security. The most emotionally secure people I know, do it by addressing their insecurity through external factors. Eg: Finding a partner who provides affirmation, dealing with death by passing on your genes, getting past judgement by working with a patient partner, etc etc. Some people have outsourced some of these tasks to be therapist, but a therapist isn't your friend. A transactional relationship will always feel transactional, no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise. The truth is, that a strong relationship is just objectively more rewarding and comforting than perpetual singledom. That's because throughout a relationship, both people demonstrate 'non-transactional actions' that provide security to the other person. Marriage places a 50% of your net-worth cost on breaking a deal, which makes the traction itself untenable. Might sound like golden handcuffs. But if you want to be hand cuffed to be person, then that's just a golden bracelet. The second part of it is permanence. You might have a really strong community of people you aren't married to, but there is an upper bound of inconvenience past which you can't maintain a relationship. If they move to another town, its over. Your non-contract/blood-bound community does not persist over time. Marriage explicitly ties you together semi-permanently. People fly across oceans to be care takers for their family. That permanence gives you comfort. Marriage and family are social technology. They solved problems faced by everyone afflicted by the human condition. Sure, they have inconvenient bits attached to them, and that's because they are also fair. You get what you put in. It is not that it is impossible to live a happy life without family formalized in blood or a hefty contract. But, all alternative solutions I know of, are some version of building your own family. Just that those solutions usually require a lot more work to get the same level of comfort, belonging and security provided by a healthy traditional family.

29 points by amichail 3y ago

Our_Benefactors 3y ago

[flagged]

jmoak3 3y ago
I don’t think the flat’ers are happy about it all either, but what would you do if your future was either a hopeless grind or some degree of comfort? Booms are followed by busts, in the mightiest booms the future gets bought and sold as far as the eye can see and the stakeholders demand delivery at the expense of those who come along after. Sometimes you show up too late, reject the deal, and catch the bust as your peers join you - you just have to wait it out until your time is better spent. I’m thankful that I’m from a place with plenty of responsibility and land up for grabs, and that I stumbled into this industry. From what I can tell from reading casually, growing up today in many parts of the USA, China, or Seoul, or even Europe is a real struggle to claim reputation, responsibility, and assets for yourself.
- FreshStart 3y ago
  If a system offers a bad deal not buying and keeping your resources is the best deal. Would layflatlanders migrate if they got the chance and then change their stance.
  - xyzzy123 3y ago
    The main resource you have when you're young is time. You can withhold it from "the system" but you don't get to keep it :(
    - FreshStart 3y ago
      In case of 966 you at least get to keep your sanity
CapstanRoller 3y ago
[flagged]
- Our_Benefactors 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - prewett 3y ago
    Xi Jinping has communicated that lying flat is not part of his vision. But, it can't be CCP propaganda. See, the key thing about the CCP (particularly Xi) is that the solution to a problem is always more control. The State is always telling you how to live your life--note that Chinese media uses a lot of terms like "should" and "correct", even when talking to foreign countries. Lying flat takes back personal control from the State, by refusing to participate in society, so it actually opposes the CCP's core value.
  - yhavr 3y ago
    > Being lazy isn’t an alternative path to working hard It's exactly is. It's funny that people don't see the double standards of capitalist economy. When you're a business, you strive to achieve more goods or money by spending less resources, labor or money. Which makes total sense, no complaints about this. So if you're an individual, applying this pattern, you also should strive to find ways to get more utility from less things. By practicing asceticism/minimalism, one looks exactly for a business-ish optimisation of life! To flourish using only a few things is the same as to build spaceships using small python script. Just imagine. One doesn't working hard, creating huge enterprise with tens thousands of workers. Just a few lines, and the spaceship is ready. How lazy the author of the script should be!
    - Our_Benefactors 3y ago
      You’ve misquoted me entirely - my point was that being lazy cannot improve your situation, while working hard may have a chance of doing so.
skyyler 3y ago
I talk to people every day that are essentially "lying flat" in the US. I can assure you that it's a global movement. There are incels on 4chan that discuss how to maintain their "NEET" lifestyle, and those are hardly the only people that want to circumvent the system of wage slavery that they were born into.
- Bostonian 3y ago
  "wage slavery" Everyone depends on the output of others. Working so that you having something to give in exchange for what you get from others is not "slavery".
  - skyyler 3y ago
    I agree that everyone has to work to have something to give in exchange for what they get from others. I don't agree that the struggles poor people face in our current economic system source from this truth. I need you to tell me with sincerity that you think what Walmart and Amazon are doing to their rank-and-file employees isn't wage slavery.
  - scarmig 3y ago
    I don't think most people who use the term wage slavery (which does seem a distraction to me) think that any payment of wages for labor is a form of slavery. It's more about the perception or reality (take your pick) that those jobs don't offer a path to progression to a better life.
    - skeaker 3y ago
      I've understood the term to essentially mean that they are dissatisfied with the culture of "work or die." No money means starvation, homelessness, and death, so whether or not you're conscious of it you're essentially working with a gun to your head. I am very fortunate to have a nice job that treats me well, but I could see myself being very upset about wage slavery if my circumstances were different.
      - 3y ago
spywaregorilla 3y ago
One propaganda campaigns are usually very obvious. Not by instinct but by just looking at the sources of things. Two, it's not cool nor in the CCP's best interest. It's their worst nightmare. It's young people deciding their economic situation is so bad that they might as well just give up and not provide labor. Urban youth unemployment is above 20% in china. Bleak as hell. Especially considering the grind of the education system and what it promised people.
hgs3 3y ago
> It’s not cool, or admirable to wallow in mediocrity. I never heard the term "lying flat" before this article, but I live that lifestyle and I'm not "wallowing in mediocrity." I code, make artwork, compose music, write fiction and non-fiction, and cook gourmet food. For years I miserably grinded for Big Corp and considered just ending it all. Since quitting my job my depression has lifted and I'm working 12+ hours a day pursuing my dreams. My sole motivation in life is to learn and create my visions. Materialism does not motivate me. Money is an obstacle, not the objective. If anything, being self-motivated to learn and produce should be the norm, greed and materialism should be shunned.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  It's funny, I had the same thought just a moment ago. I have decided that I will quit $BIGCORP and put my effort and mind into something actually useful for people. Maybe it's the place that i am, but given the evidence, I have updated my expectations over skill. I also don't have material needs, I might buy a cute top here and there, or a few books but that's it.
  - hgs3 3y ago
    If you have doubts, depending upon how you feel, you could consider speaking with your employer about working part time. Part time means more free time while still earning an income. Also consider how you might negotiate it: half-days five days a week are one thing and three full days (Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday) with the rest off is another.
    - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
      It's unlikely that a FAANG company will arrange such a situation for me, and given our current deadlines, it is unlikely that my manager will agree. I just want to write code. I hate the days when all I do is sit in meetings for pre meetings for pre meetings or write docs about docs about docs. edit: clarified on docs and meetings a bit.
      - 3y ago
g8oz 3y ago
It's actually the opposite. a grassroots form of opposition to CCP mandated growth targets.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
Is it really wallowing in mediocrity? I mean, I don't see my work as work, I see it as working in interesting and new tech, getting to play with interesting stuff and solve complex problems; and I do it for fun. When the fun stops because I am forced into crud or boring stuff, I'll just leave.
yhavr 3y ago
> lower living standards Not lower but different living standards. Also, please mind the context. Lying flatism is originated in China, that is famous for the absurd work-life balance. You know, work 6 days/week, 9am to 9pm or even stay later. Find a romantic partner, but spend time with them only Saturday evenings and on Sundays. Bring kids into this amazing lifestyle, see them also on Sundays (the rest of time, grandparents will take care of them). It's kinda obvious that people started to understand that something is going wrong and now are testing the way to fix it.
lisasays 3y ago
I'm not sure it's a "movement" either, but from what I understand it's not at all about "wallowing in mediocrity". Rather it is simply a rejection of the pervasive cult of meritocratic / hustle-culture propaganda -- which defines anything that questions (let alone has the temerity to directly oppose) its tenets as ... the sure path to mediocrity. Coupled with an observation that is the former which itself fosters mediocrity (and worse) in spheres that truly matter (health, relationships, personal fulfillment).
asdf6677 3y ago
When the measure of success is how much money you get to make for other people I don’t think “mediocrity” is the right word. Maybe 5% of people will ever be successful by an objective metric, and the rest are just trying to be a good little wagie for their boss

olliej 3y ago

Can we match the article title and put quotes around "lying flatism" because without the quotation marks or existing knowledge of the term this sentence is aneurysm inducing.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

toomuchtodo 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping

thatfrenchguy 3y ago

[flagged]

jimmywatersabc 3y ago
[flagged]
asdf6677 3y ago
Also because being single as a man means you weren’t good enough (bad) but being single as a woman means you have high standards (good)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
patrulek 3y ago
Women are not afraid of being single because they have government as a second father behind their back and can find a new partner in a matter of days without any trouble.
jameswaters123 3y ago
[flagged]
voldacar 3y ago
Women have useless partners in 80% of cases? That seems a bit unhinged, don't you think?

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago

I had not heard the term "lie flat" before, and immediately thought it was trying to make enough money so that whenever you flew, you could always fly business class in "lie flat" seats.

euroderf 3y ago

Per the 60s technology-positive Zeitgeist, we were all supposed to have flying cars by now. Oh and also 15-hour workweeks. Maybe "lying flat" is about taking an honest stab at at least getting that second part, the workweek, sorted out.

nobodyandproud 3y ago

Is this similar to hikimori, minus some of the extreme social withdrawal? Is this the human equivalent of “the beautiful ones”, where the cut-throat resource hoarding and society’s enforcement of non-violence has lead to a somewhat different way of “checking out”? As soon as one kid or dependent is involved there’s great pressure to participate in the rat race.

asdf6677 3y ago

I’m one of these people. I think romantic relationships are extremely important for pragmatic reasons (housing affordability, having children, as a safety net, etc) but I choose not to date because I don’t know how to find anyone I actually like. I don’t understand how people get into relationships without treating dating like a job search. “Just put yourself out there”, “you’re overthinking it - a relationship will come when you least expect it” But what if that doesn’t work? I’m pretty sure eventually I’ll need to settle for whatever I can get and try to make things work out like it’s an arranged marriage I’m almost 30 years old and still in the closet because I feel like there’s no benefit to coming out. A straight and gay incel have the exact same life other than porn preferences. Maybe I’m just asexual.

mrcrumb1 3y ago
Most of the people I know that pursue relationships for purely pragmatic reasons and fail seem to forget that people won't fit into boxes because you want put them there. The people I see that are successful meet people where they are, and let their positions in their life reveal itself as they get to know the other person. I don't know if this applies to you or is even helpful, but it is a pattern I have noticed in my life.
- asdf6677 3y ago
  Successful in pseudo arranged marriages, or just in general? I haven’t been in a relationship yet so I have no idea if this will even work
  - mrcrumb1 3y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by pseudo arranged marriages. I mean successful at building new interpersonal relationships in general, and generally that translates into more opportunity for romantic relationships.
    - asdf6677 3y ago
      I mean people who settle for somebody they don’t have romantic feelings for because it’s a pragmatic decision

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

testmasterflex 3y ago

The price for this lifestyle is paid after midlife. What are you going to do in your older days without a family?

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Whatever makes you happy. If you’re emotionally insecure or codependent, that could pose a problem of course (I recommend a therapist). But a family is by no means necessary to live a life that optimizes for high happiness levels.
- screye 3y ago
  > If you’re emotionally insecure Everyone is emotionally insecure. Some people are pathological insecure and need treatment, but no one is a paragon of emotional security. The most emotionally secure people I know, do it by addressing their insecurity through external factors. Eg: Finding a partner who provides affirmation, dealing with death by passing on your genes, getting past judgement by working with a patient partner, etc etc. Some people have outsourced some of these tasks to be therapist, but a therapist isn't your friend. A transactional relationship will always feel transactional, no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise. The truth is, that a strong relationship is just objectively more rewarding and comforting than perpetual singledom. That's because throughout a relationship, both people demonstrate 'non-transactional actions' that provide security to the other person. Marriage places a 50% of your net-worth cost on breaking a deal, which makes the traction itself untenable. Might sound like golden handcuffs. But if you want to be hand cuffed to be person, then that's just a golden bracelet. The second part of it is permanence. You might have a really strong community of people you aren't married to, but there is an upper bound of inconvenience past which you can't maintain a relationship. If they move to another town, its over. Your non-contract/blood-bound community does not persist over time. Marriage explicitly ties you together semi-permanently. People fly across oceans to be care takers for their family. That permanence gives you comfort. Marriage and family are social technology. They solved problems faced by everyone afflicted by the human condition. Sure, they have inconvenient bits attached to them, and that's because they are also fair. You get what you put in. It is not that it is impossible to live a happy life without family formalized in blood or a hefty contract. But, all alternative solutions I know of, are some version of building your own family. Just that those solutions usually require a lot more work to get the same level of comfort, belonging and security provided by a healthy traditional family.