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They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting i

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over. Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolidates the entire industry behind it (possible) or we end up in a world with a split between NACS and CCS (also possible, but probably less likely).

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford Consumers prefer NACS to CCS. And Electrify America failed, spectacularly, to deliver a working product. (As someone put it bluntly, NACS exists. CCS does not. You bet on the horse, not the unicorn.) The auto industry is standardising around NACS because it will eventually force the standard into the open. That, in turn, enables antitrust questions about the Tesla/Supercharger tie-up. (In the meantime, everyone avoids the wastefulness of a meaningless standards battle.)
- bombcar 3y ago
  We should have some brand of car install both plugs (as I understand the smarts are in the car, the plug is basically a dumb electrical connection) and then after a year or two see which people are using.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    My understanding is that installing both is basically 2x the complexity. What's on the other side of the plug is fairly different between NACS and CCS
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Is that “double the price of the car” or “an extra 100/200” or somewhere in between. Because I could see people taking the option.
  - simondotau 3y ago
    There are many cars on the global market with two AC charging sockets but last time I checked, there are none with two DC charging sockets. Multiple DC charging sockets would be a severe safety risk without a beefy isolating mechanism, which adds weight and a non-trivial point of failure.
Server6 3y ago
The problem is that CCS is objectively bad and way worse than NACS. I suggest watching Sandy Munro's analysis on it.
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  [citation needed] Its a plug, its bigger than NACS but apart from that its hard to notice the difference as a consumer
  - wilg 3y ago
    It's better engineered and designed. It's that simple. Yes, the differences aren't mind-blowing, but who cares. As long as they properly open it up and standardize it as they are saying they will, then this is a perfectly good outcome. Most EVs and fast chargers in the US have Tesla/NACS ports anyway, so this is the easier lift to standardize.
    - sangnoir 3y ago
      It's not black and white: CCS supports 800V charging, NACS does not (yet). Higher voltage = lower current and lighter cables and less strain on the connectors. Superchargers wete also lagging on liquid-cooled cables, which will be included in v4.
      - wilg 3y ago
        If it's possible for NACS to support 800V charging then that is not really a very meaningful advantage of CCS, is it? I think Tesla themselves will eventually switch to 800v at some point. V3 Superchargers have liquid cooled cables, that's why they are thinner than V2 cables. V4 has even crazier liquid cooling, where the conductors are directly immersed in the coolant.
        sangnoir 3y ago
        Sure it can support higher voltage in a new revision, but that means currently deployed chargers have an inferior design in that aspect, doesn't it?
AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
[dead]
mustacheemperor 3y ago
As far as I know, Tesla will still add CCS compatible adapters to the Supercharger network in the future, since it is a requirement for the EV network funding they're going after by opening up to additional manufacturers. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-biden-ev-charger-rules-stress-made-america-force-tesla-changes-2023-02-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-bi...
- mkozlows 3y ago
  That's the plan as of right now, but the clear intent here is to push the government to change the rules to allow NACS-only chargers. If a few more automakers (Hyundai and VW being probably the most relevant) sign deals with Tesla to use NACS, it'd be impossible to argue that there's any reason to do a CCS buildout.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    I think this is very much correct. This is the line from the Federal Highway Administration's rule from February (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03...) that talks about the Tesla connector vs. CCS: > FHWA Response: Commenters overwhelmingly supported the CCS connector standard and verified that the industry is moving to adopt CCS as a market standard; therefore, FHWA requires CCS Type 1 connectors for each DCFC port through this final rule. Although a few commenters preferred Tesla connectors, most of the Tesla products are proprietary and do not address the needs of the majority of EV makes and models available in the domestic market. However, on November 11, 2022, Tesla announced its “North American Charging Standard” (NACS), which makes its existing and previously proprietary Electric Vehicle charging port and connector available for broad and open public use, including to network operators and vehicle manufacturers. In the announcement, Tesla noted that charging providers were planning to offer NACS charging ports at public charging infrastructure. This rulemaking allows permanently attached non-proprietary connectors (such as NACS) to be provided on each charging port so long as each DCFC charging port has at least one permanently attached CCS Type 1 connector and is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle. Again, the CCS rule came out in February, and when the rule was being made it definitely did look like "the industry is moving to adopt CCS as a market standard", as prior to Nov 2022 there was no "North American Charging Standard", only Tesla's closed, proprietary tech.
iknowstuff 3y ago
90% of the north american BEV industry has consolidated on NACS just now.
exw 3y ago
<<Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla>> It's always curious to see someone with such strong conviction that somehow they have an insight, without access to any of the information involved in negotiating this partnership, that the various folks at GM and Ford failed to see.
- sngz 3y ago
  I agree with you but to be fair they fail to see a lot of things other than their stock price
BluePen7 3y ago
> Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford They're trying to sell expensive EVs, but people were buying Teslas instead because they can guarantee the chargers work and are in good locations. I have a lot of strong criticisms of Tesla, but slowly investing billions into building a reliable charging network over the last 10 years is hardly a "fast one"

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford Consumers prefer NACS to CCS. And Electrify America failed, spectacularly, to deliver a working product. (As someone put it bluntly, NACS exists. CCS does not. You bet on the horse, not the unicorn.) The auto industry is standardising around NACS because it will eventually force the standard into the open. That, in turn, enables antitrust questions about the Tesla/Supercharger tie-up. (In the meantime, everyone avoids the wastefulness of a meaningless standards battle.)

bombcar 3y ago
We should have some brand of car install both plugs (as I understand the smarts are in the car, the plug is basically a dumb electrical connection) and then after a year or two see which people are using.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  My understanding is that installing both is basically 2x the complexity. What's on the other side of the plug is fairly different between NACS and CCS
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Is that “double the price of the car” or “an extra 100/200” or somewhere in between. Because I could see people taking the option.
- simondotau 3y ago
  There are many cars on the global market with two AC charging sockets but last time I checked, there are none with two DC charging sockets. Multiple DC charging sockets would be a severe safety risk without a beefy isolating mechanism, which adds weight and a non-trivial point of failure.

Server6 3y ago

The problem is that CCS is objectively bad and way worse than NACS. I suggest watching Sandy Munro's analysis on it.

KaiserPro 3y ago
[citation needed] Its a plug, its bigger than NACS but apart from that its hard to notice the difference as a consumer
- wilg 3y ago
  It's better engineered and designed. It's that simple. Yes, the differences aren't mind-blowing, but who cares. As long as they properly open it up and standardize it as they are saying they will, then this is a perfectly good outcome. Most EVs and fast chargers in the US have Tesla/NACS ports anyway, so this is the easier lift to standardize.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    It's not black and white: CCS supports 800V charging, NACS does not (yet). Higher voltage = lower current and lighter cables and less strain on the connectors. Superchargers wete also lagging on liquid-cooled cables, which will be included in v4.
    - wilg 3y ago
      If it's possible for NACS to support 800V charging then that is not really a very meaningful advantage of CCS, is it? I think Tesla themselves will eventually switch to 800v at some point. V3 Superchargers have liquid cooled cables, that's why they are thinner than V2 cables. V4 has even crazier liquid cooling, where the conductors are directly immersed in the coolant.
      - sangnoir 3y ago
        Sure it can support higher voltage in a new revision, but that means currently deployed chargers have an inferior design in that aspect, doesn't it?

AlgorithmicTime 3y ago

[dead]

mustacheemperor 3y ago

As far as I know, Tesla will still add CCS compatible adapters to the Supercharger network in the future, since it is a requirement for the EV network funding they're going after by opening up to additional manufacturers. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-biden-ev-charger-rules-stress-made-america-force-tesla-changes-2023-02-15/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-bi...

mkozlows 3y ago
That's the plan as of right now, but the clear intent here is to push the government to change the rules to allow NACS-only chargers. If a few more automakers (Hyundai and VW being probably the most relevant) sign deals with Tesla to use NACS, it'd be impossible to argue that there's any reason to do a CCS buildout.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  I think this is very much correct. This is the line from the Federal Highway Administration's rule from February (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03...) that talks about the Tesla connector vs. CCS: > FHWA Response: Commenters overwhelmingly supported the CCS connector standard and verified that the industry is moving to adopt CCS as a market standard; therefore, FHWA requires CCS Type 1 connectors for each DCFC port through this final rule. Although a few commenters preferred Tesla connectors, most of the Tesla products are proprietary and do not address the needs of the majority of EV makes and models available in the domestic market. However, on November 11, 2022, Tesla announced its “North American Charging Standard” (NACS), which makes its existing and previously proprietary Electric Vehicle charging port and connector available for broad and open public use, including to network operators and vehicle manufacturers. In the announcement, Tesla noted that charging providers were planning to offer NACS charging ports at public charging infrastructure. This rulemaking allows permanently attached non-proprietary connectors (such as NACS) to be provided on each charging port so long as each DCFC charging port has at least one permanently attached CCS Type 1 connector and is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle. Again, the CCS rule came out in February, and when the rule was being made it definitely did look like "the industry is moving to adopt CCS as a market standard", as prior to Nov 2022 there was no "North American Charging Standard", only Tesla's closed, proprietary tech.

iknowstuff 3y ago

90% of the north american BEV industry has consolidated on NACS just now.

exw 3y ago

<<Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla>> It's always curious to see someone with such strong conviction that somehow they have an insight, without access to any of the information involved in negotiating this partnership, that the various folks at GM and Ford failed to see.

sngz 3y ago
I agree with you but to be fair they fail to see a lot of things other than their stock price

BluePen7 3y ago

> Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford They're trying to sell expensive EVs, but people were buying Teslas instead because they can guarantee the chargers work and are in good locations. I have a lot of strong criticisms of Tesla, but slowly investing billions into building a reliable charging network over the last 10 years is hardly a "fast one"