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It's in the article: "america does this too". I actually don't think America does this as a general rule but it does on occasion do worse (black sites) oh and

It's in the article: "america does this too". I actually don't think America does this as a general rule but it does on occasion do worse (black sites) oh and also china has black sites too. For example, does the us actively attempt to do anything to Snowden or Assange - besides arrest them in the open? I doubt it.

hotpotamus 3y ago
It seems like most of the government-run dystopian elements of China have a private parallel in the US. Like take the "social" part off of social credit score. This article sounds like the kind of work aggressive private investigators might be able to do for you (as far as I know, the Pinkertons are still in business).
- bragr 3y ago
  Very much so: https://pinkerton.com/ https://pinkerton.com/
- worrycue 3y ago
  Your credit score just measures your reliability in repaying loans no? It only affects your ability to get loans no? It’s no different from a driving test which measures you ability to drive and only affects your eligibility to drive. We use such specialised tests with clear “passing” conditions that only affect a specific part of our lives all the time. Social credit systems seem far more far reaching from what I have heard - affects your ability to get loans, buy property, travel, … etc. Your score also depends on pleasing certain people in society rather meeting some objective criteria - reminds me of the Black Mirror episode “Nosedive”. Don’t think they are really comparable.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > It only affects your ability to get loans no? Not in the US. It also affects your ability to get housing, to get jobs, and other things.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    > More than half of employers conduct background checks during the hiring process only, and the No. 1 reason (at 86%) is to protect their employees and customers, says the 2018 HR.com report.[0] > Landlords generally look for a credit score of 650 or above to approve a rental application.[1] [0]https://www.cnbc.com/select/can-employers-see-your-credit-score/ https://www.cnbc.com/select/can-employers-see-your-credit-sc... [1]https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/credit-score-needed-to-rent-apartment https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/credit-score-neede...
  - lolinder 3y ago
    > Social credit systems seem far more far reaching from what I have heard - affects your ability to get loans, buy property, travel, … etc. Your score also depends on pleasing certain people in society rather meeting some objective criteria - reminds me of the Black Mirror episode “Nosedive”. This is the way the media covered it, but PolyMatter recently did a video that goes a long way toward clarifying what Social Credit means [0]. The short version is that it's a collection of barely-related initiatives and companies responsible for a lot of different things, that in Western eyes all got lumped together into a monolothic version that encompasses every aspect of life. PolyMatter has a lot of good content on China. They're highly critical of China's policies, but they have a very realistic perspective on China's quite limited capabilities as an enormous, diverse, authoritarian state. My main takeaway from their China content is that China's ability to micromanage is dramatically overestimated in Western pop culture. Not that their regime is less oppressive than we think, just vastly less competent. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqov6F00KMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqov6F00KMc
  - davidjfelix 3y ago
    I feel like you're really downplaying how impactful credit score is and how dystopian it is. They rebranded fraud against the lender as "identity theft" against you so that they could sell your fraudulent debt to private harassment firms. In turn since identity theft isn't real (fraud is) you need to get the lender to file a police report and unseal their private financial records (they won't do this). All this while you experience real damages like being rejected by mainstream lenders, swaths of employment and housing opportunities and pushed towards fringe and predatory lenders. That being said, I also think you're not accurately describing social credit or relying entirely on hearsay. For the most part its focused around credit worthiness and financial fraud. I'm not a huge fan of either system, but as somebody who's worked with people harmed by the US private credit system, I can tell you that it's possible to "Nosedive" here and that's not just what I've heard.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  > It seems like most of the government-run dystopian elements of China have a private parallel in the US Welding doors of apartments where a few people test positive for COVID? Housing a male of the ethnic majority in a minority family and forcing the minority women to sleep with the men while their husbands are in Concentrtion camps? Organ harvesting of political prisoners? I don't think the US does "privatized" versions of these things.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    The US is much better about repression of ethnic minorities than it used to be (one of the founding fathers literally fathered slave children as an example of that particular hypocrisy), but it certainly still exists. I did not say that every feature of society is perfectly replicated, nor have I studied both of them well enough to know if they are perfectly analogous. I'm sure some societies showcase their own idiosyncratic injustices. For instance, I'm not aware of for-profit prisons in China.
willcipriano 3y ago
If China could get the US to agree to extradition of its residents for violations of Chinese law they probably would've just done what the US is doing to Julian Assange right now.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  How is prosecuting a foreign national for espionage like trying to render your own citizens for "reasons"?
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    The Chinese aren't doing it for "reasons", they have a justification that fits into their narrative, just like the US. The similarities are that the state is using its power to punish people that have made it look bad or have otherwise displeased it. The main difference is that isn't supposed to happen in America, but it does no matter who you vote for.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- colechristensen 3y ago
  I’m not saying it’s definitely correct but there’s a silos argument for Assange having committed espionage. What charges on similar scales and severity would these harassed Chinese be accused of?
sillystuff 3y ago
> ...does the us actively attempt to do anything to Snowden or Assange - besides arrest them in the open? I doubt it. "According to former intelligence officials, in the wake of the Vault 7 leaks, the CIA talked about kidnapping Assange from Ecuador's London embassy, and some senior officials discussed his potential assassination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Did they do it, though? Talk is cheap, man.
  - sillystuff 3y ago
    The CIA has engaged extensively in assassination and torture for the better part of the last century. Over 600 assassination attempts against Fidel Castro alone for the crime of not kowtowing to all US demands (Fidel originally tried to ally with US not the Soviet Union, but was rebuffed by the US because redistributing foreign owned/stolen land was central to Fidel's central policy of lifting ordinary Cuban's out of poverty); also, since the Spanish-American war, the US viewed Cuba as something of a colony, and was unwilling to treat it as a peer. More apropos, the US also kept "accidentally" bombing Al Jazeera newsrooms during the US unprovoked war of aggression in Iraq. Coincidentally, Al Jazeera were some of the only reporters who went independently into the field to report on US war crimes. The US was given the coordinates of the Al Jazeera Offices, so the US knew what they were bombing (each of multiple times). I was subjected to the same bullshit K-12 hero worship "history" lessons and other US propaganda as I suspect you were/are. As a child we moved to a country where the US overthrew the democratically elected government and installed a far-right brutal murderous dictatorship (in support of a US corporation's rape of the country). This led to civil war (which I experienced first-hand; the US providing support to the oppressive government regime during the decades long war). We moved back to the US before the genocide began (the US providing support; Ronald Regan even personally meeting with the General primarily responsible for executing the genocide). This experience forced me to confront the lies we are told in the US. Do what you want, but I'd suggest reading university level historical accounts (even those published in the US), they are much more accurate with far less/no hero worship. Also, listening/reading to foreign news sources is useful to help break through the propaganda our corporate news sources feed us here. The process is similar to being de-programmed from a cult, and the ultra patriots chanting, "USA, USA, USA..." have drank the Kool-Aid. Good luck!
screye 3y ago
The difference is that the US picks a couple of high profile scapegoats and makes their life hell, but everyone else is untouched. The US will harass you, but publicly and legally. If you're a media person, you won't get access to the money-making Americans corps. They'll cancel your visa, and harass anyone with your namesake at a border crossing. The harassment from the CCP is continuous and affects a large number of people. Just because 1 side does bad things, doesn't mean they can't moralize the bigger culprit. ( I do find comments on the morals of war to be a bit rich coming from Americans)
NoRelToEmber 3y ago
While true, that doesn't make China any less of a threat. When someone invades your territory, and they accuse "But you invaded others in the past!", you should not dismantle your defense and let their tanks roll through your streets. But that is the purpose of that accusation - to inhibit self-defense through demoralization. Arguing that no, you're virtuous enough to deserve safety, is already falling into that trap. They're not coming to exact a just punishment.

hotpotamus 3y ago

It seems like most of the government-run dystopian elements of China have a private parallel in the US. Like take the "social" part off of social credit score. This article sounds like the kind of work aggressive private investigators might be able to do for you (as far as I know, the Pinkertons are still in business).

bragr 3y ago
Very much so: https://pinkerton.com/ https://pinkerton.com/
worrycue 3y ago
Your credit score just measures your reliability in repaying loans no? It only affects your ability to get loans no? It’s no different from a driving test which measures you ability to drive and only affects your eligibility to drive. We use such specialised tests with clear “passing” conditions that only affect a specific part of our lives all the time. Social credit systems seem far more far reaching from what I have heard - affects your ability to get loans, buy property, travel, … etc. Your score also depends on pleasing certain people in society rather meeting some objective criteria - reminds me of the Black Mirror episode “Nosedive”. Don’t think they are really comparable.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > It only affects your ability to get loans no? Not in the US. It also affects your ability to get housing, to get jobs, and other things.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  > More than half of employers conduct background checks during the hiring process only, and the No. 1 reason (at 86%) is to protect their employees and customers, says the 2018 HR.com report.[0] > Landlords generally look for a credit score of 650 or above to approve a rental application.[1] [0]https://www.cnbc.com/select/can-employers-see-your-credit-score/ https://www.cnbc.com/select/can-employers-see-your-credit-sc... [1]https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/credit-score-needed-to-rent-apartment https://www.apartmentlist.com/renter-life/credit-score-neede...
- lolinder 3y ago
  > Social credit systems seem far more far reaching from what I have heard - affects your ability to get loans, buy property, travel, … etc. Your score also depends on pleasing certain people in society rather meeting some objective criteria - reminds me of the Black Mirror episode “Nosedive”. This is the way the media covered it, but PolyMatter recently did a video that goes a long way toward clarifying what Social Credit means [0]. The short version is that it's a collection of barely-related initiatives and companies responsible for a lot of different things, that in Western eyes all got lumped together into a monolothic version that encompasses every aspect of life. PolyMatter has a lot of good content on China. They're highly critical of China's policies, but they have a very realistic perspective on China's quite limited capabilities as an enormous, diverse, authoritarian state. My main takeaway from their China content is that China's ability to micromanage is dramatically overestimated in Western pop culture. Not that their regime is less oppressive than we think, just vastly less competent. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqov6F00KMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqov6F00KMc
- davidjfelix 3y ago
  I feel like you're really downplaying how impactful credit score is and how dystopian it is. They rebranded fraud against the lender as "identity theft" against you so that they could sell your fraudulent debt to private harassment firms. In turn since identity theft isn't real (fraud is) you need to get the lender to file a police report and unseal their private financial records (they won't do this). All this while you experience real damages like being rejected by mainstream lenders, swaths of employment and housing opportunities and pushed towards fringe and predatory lenders. That being said, I also think you're not accurately describing social credit or relying entirely on hearsay. For the most part its focused around credit worthiness and financial fraud. I'm not a huge fan of either system, but as somebody who's worked with people harmed by the US private credit system, I can tell you that it's possible to "Nosedive" here and that's not just what I've heard.
throwawaymaths 3y ago
> It seems like most of the government-run dystopian elements of China have a private parallel in the US Welding doors of apartments where a few people test positive for COVID? Housing a male of the ethnic majority in a minority family and forcing the minority women to sleep with the men while their husbands are in Concentrtion camps? Organ harvesting of political prisoners? I don't think the US does "privatized" versions of these things.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  The US is much better about repression of ethnic minorities than it used to be (one of the founding fathers literally fathered slave children as an example of that particular hypocrisy), but it certainly still exists. I did not say that every feature of society is perfectly replicated, nor have I studied both of them well enough to know if they are perfectly analogous. I'm sure some societies showcase their own idiosyncratic injustices. For instance, I'm not aware of for-profit prisons in China.

willcipriano 3y ago

If China could get the US to agree to extradition of its residents for violations of Chinese law they probably would've just done what the US is doing to Julian Assange right now.

EA-3167 3y ago
How is prosecuting a foreign national for espionage like trying to render your own citizens for "reasons"?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  The Chinese aren't doing it for "reasons", they have a justification that fits into their narrative, just like the US. The similarities are that the state is using its power to punish people that have made it look bad or have otherwise displeased it. The main difference is that isn't supposed to happen in America, but it does no matter who you vote for.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
colechristensen 3y ago
I’m not saying it’s definitely correct but there’s a silos argument for Assange having committed espionage. What charges on similar scales and severity would these harassed Chinese be accused of?

sillystuff 3y ago

> ...does the us actively attempt to do anything to Snowden or Assange - besides arrest them in the open? I doubt it. "According to former intelligence officials, in the wake of the Vault 7 leaks, the CIA talked about kidnapping Assange from Ecuador's London embassy, and some senior officials discussed his potential assassination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange

throwawaymaths 3y ago
Did they do it, though? Talk is cheap, man.
- sillystuff 3y ago
  The CIA has engaged extensively in assassination and torture for the better part of the last century. Over 600 assassination attempts against Fidel Castro alone for the crime of not kowtowing to all US demands (Fidel originally tried to ally with US not the Soviet Union, but was rebuffed by the US because redistributing foreign owned/stolen land was central to Fidel's central policy of lifting ordinary Cuban's out of poverty); also, since the Spanish-American war, the US viewed Cuba as something of a colony, and was unwilling to treat it as a peer. More apropos, the US also kept "accidentally" bombing Al Jazeera newsrooms during the US unprovoked war of aggression in Iraq. Coincidentally, Al Jazeera were some of the only reporters who went independently into the field to report on US war crimes. The US was given the coordinates of the Al Jazeera Offices, so the US knew what they were bombing (each of multiple times). I was subjected to the same bullshit K-12 hero worship "history" lessons and other US propaganda as I suspect you were/are. As a child we moved to a country where the US overthrew the democratically elected government and installed a far-right brutal murderous dictatorship (in support of a US corporation's rape of the country). This led to civil war (which I experienced first-hand; the US providing support to the oppressive government regime during the decades long war). We moved back to the US before the genocide began (the US providing support; Ronald Regan even personally meeting with the General primarily responsible for executing the genocide). This experience forced me to confront the lies we are told in the US. Do what you want, but I'd suggest reading university level historical accounts (even those published in the US), they are much more accurate with far less/no hero worship. Also, listening/reading to foreign news sources is useful to help break through the propaganda our corporate news sources feed us here. The process is similar to being de-programmed from a cult, and the ultra patriots chanting, "USA, USA, USA..." have drank the Kool-Aid. Good luck!

screye 3y ago

The difference is that the US picks a couple of high profile scapegoats and makes their life hell, but everyone else is untouched. The US will harass you, but publicly and legally. If you're a media person, you won't get access to the money-making Americans corps. They'll cancel your visa, and harass anyone with your namesake at a border crossing. The harassment from the CCP is continuous and affects a large number of people. Just because 1 side does bad things, doesn't mean they can't moralize the bigger culprit. ( I do find comments on the morals of war to be a bit rich coming from Americans)

NoRelToEmber 3y ago

While true, that doesn't make China any less of a threat. When someone invades your territory, and they accuse "But you invaded others in the past!", you should not dismantle your defense and let their tanks roll through your streets. But that is the purpose of that accusation - to inhibit self-defense through demoralization. Arguing that no, you're virtuous enough to deserve safety, is already falling into that trap. They're not coming to exact a just punishment.