7 ms·

Crazy how people just drive around in cars and fuel up with gasoline that contains like 2% benzene. And we let teenagers do this, with no personal protective eq

Crazy how people just drive around in cars and fuel up with gasoline that contains like 2% benzene. And we let teenagers do this, with no personal protective equipment and no basic supervision.

nomel 3y ago
Reference, for skin absorption of gasoline: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4067326/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4067326/
mschuster91 3y ago
> And we let teenagers do this, with no personal protective equipment and no basic supervision. Gas pumps have mandatory vapor recovery systems for decades now. That problem is long solved.
- nomel 3y ago
  That doesn’t solve the problem of people splashing it on themselves, from faulty handles, which I’ve experienced and seen within the last decade.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    I don't doubt your experience, but I'd rather put that one on abysmal lax standards in the US... here in Germany, myself and a couple of friends I just asked never have witnessed such a thing outside of freak accidents where someone knocked over a jerry can.
    - nomel 3y ago
      I believe the standard here is to change the handle once enough people complain about it splashing them. That was the case for the faulty handle that splashed me.
  - specialist 3y ago
    My father (and me) washed engine parts with gasoline. And occasionally degreased our hands (followed by dish soap and sugar). We practically bathed in the stuff. Then my father discovered Goop. My father also dumped engine oil into storm drains. Then into the ground when that was banned. Yes, he was an idiot. (Becoming a treehugger was probably an act of rebellion.)
    - brewdad 3y ago
      My father used to change the car oil on the lawn rather than the driveway. He would do this less than 100 ft from the well that supplied our drinking water. At some point he stopped but it certainly lasted through multiple vehicles.
      - toss1 3y ago
        That well is probably contaminated still. Bought a new house in a semi-rural area, had only ever been farms, zero petrol stations ever existed within at least a 4-mile radius, and mostly downhill. Yet the water test found MTBE [0], Methyl tert-butyl ether, a gasoline additive. Had to maintain and replace an activated carbon filter in the water system ever since. The only possibility is some farmer decades ago dumping oil (IDK if it is in there, or gets in there from piston-ring blow-by) or leaking gasoline somewhere in the watershed. Awful. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether
        peteradio 3y ago
        How deep are your wells there? It seems difficult for serious contamination to happen where I live outside of an poorly maintained well letting surface water down.
        mschuster91 3y ago
        Contamination of watersheds is easy - depending on which source you believe, a single drop can contaminate 100 to 600 liters of water. A single cigarette butt can contaminate 500 liters. And once the stuff is in the watershed/groundwater, it can be really really hard to get out of there, especially if the watershed is enclosed or doesn't have much outflow.
- specialist 3y ago
  Is that only for urban areas? I dimly recall old style nozzles still in use while driving cross country.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    Good god, it seems like y'all dropped the requirement for Stage 2 vapor recovery systems in 2011 [1] based on the pretense of onboard filters in vehicles being enough... meanwhile here in the EU, where many member countries already had national requirements for years prior to that, we passed that requirement in 2009 [2]. The US attitude, particular to expensive systems, on anything emissions related continues to negatively amaze me. [1] https://www.tceq.texas.gov/airquality/mobilesource/vapor_recovery.html https://www.tceq.texas.gov/airquality/mobilesource/vapor_rec... [2] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:285:0036:0039:EN:PDF https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:...
    - brewdad 3y ago
      I'm sure it was a combination of not wanting to spend money and customers feeling the new pumps with vapor recovery systems were too difficult to operate and so sought out stations that hadn't yet upgraded.
- s1mon 3y ago
  At least in the US, vapor recovery seems to be implemented differently by state. In California I notice fumes when pumping gas far less than in New York. There seems to be various types of nozzles and legislation (some with rubber boots and some without). Since 2006 cars were apparently required to have vapor recovery systems built in, so the EPA has dropped requirements for systems at the pump. California (not surprisingly) still seems to lead the way in improving the effectiveness of the systems despite the EPA backing off. https://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/12/epa-says-outdated-gas-vapor-recovery-nozzles-no-longer-required/ https://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/12/epa-says-outdated-gas-va... https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/documents/workshop-vapor-recovery-nozzle-and-fill-pipe-specifications https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/documents/workshop-vapor-re... https://www.petrolplaza.com/knowledge/2057 https://www.petrolplaza.com/knowledge/2057
  - rcme 3y ago
    Yea I was just thinking the other day how I haven’t actually smelled gas in a long time. I used to love the smell as a kid, but I’m happy it doesn’t seem like my children will get the same exposure.
- eep_social 3y ago
  I guess you are referring to stage 2 recovery systems on pump handles which are not uniformly required. As per usual, the US is large and regulations are often bare minimums with different states implementing different interpretations or additional requirements. Here’s the 2012 EPA ruling which loosened the requirement for stage 2 recovery systems: https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/FR-2012-05-16/2012-11846 https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/FR-2012-05-16/2012-11846 which led directly to this move in Arizona: https://agriculture.az.gov/weights-measures/fueling/gasoline-vapor-recovery/stage-ii-vapor-recovery-decommissioning https://agriculture.az.gov/weights-measures/fueling/gasoline...
rootsudo 3y ago
Can also say the same thing how teens can drive moving things that can blow up, crash, cause loss of limb and life... and untold amounts in property damage.
jabl 3y ago
To nitpick, at least in the EU regulations limit the benzene content in gasoline to a maximum of 1%. I had a vague recollection the limit was actually slightly stricter in the USA at 0.6%, but maybe my memory fails me.
- wil421 3y ago
  It’s 0.62% or less for gas.[1] [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918986/#:~:text=Benzene%20content%20in%20gasoline%20is%20federally%20regulated%2C%20with%20any%20refineries,benzene%20by%20volume%20%5B14%5D https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918986/#:~:tex....
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    No, 0.62% is the average: Benzene content in gasoline is federally regulated, with any refineries or importers required to average less than or equal to 0.62% benzene by volume.” The very next sentence in your link mentions it can have up to 2%, as I mentioned: “Generally, gasoline in the United States is likely to contain 0.5%–2.0% benzene by volume [14,15].” 18% of gasoline’s weight is the BTEX aromatics, benzene, toluene, ethylene-benzene, and xylene. https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-additive-than-btex/#:~:text=BTEX%2C%20also%20known%20as%20aromatics,up%20to%20minimum%20octane%20standards https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-addit.... This may be done depending on the season to increase the octane of gasoline. An average of 18% of these aromatics is not what I’d call just trace amounts…
    - jabl 3y ago
      Interesting that the regulations are done that way in terms of both an average and a maximum. I wonder how the average is determined, how many samples, and what is the size of a batch etc.? > 18% of gasoline’s weight is the BTEX aromatics, benzene, toluene, ethylene-benzene, and xylene. https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-addit https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-addit.... > This may be done depending on the season to increase the octane of gasoline. > An average of 18% of these aromatics is not what I’d call just trace amounts… Yes, BTEX is added to improve octane. It's also possible to increase octane by alkylation and isomerization, which produce branched alkanes which tend to be less toxic and burn cleaner than aromatics, but reformation/dehydrogenation which produces aromatics is cheaper.. But yes, while the other aromatics aren't exactly healthy, they're nowhere as dangerous as benzene. So it makes sense to minimize the amount of benzene via regulation, but be a bit less strict about the other aromatics. As an aside, a quick glance on that "fuelfreedom.org" site suggests they really like ethanol as a fuel additive, which makes me suspect they might be a front group for the corn ethanol lobby. So I'd be wary of taking what they say at face value.

Crazy how people just drive around in cars and fuel up with gasoline that contains like 2% benzene. And we let teenagers do this, with no personal protective equipment and no basic supervision.

nomel 3y ago

Reference, for skin absorption of gasoline: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4067326/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4067326/

mschuster91 3y ago

> And we let teenagers do this, with no personal protective equipment and no basic supervision. Gas pumps have mandatory vapor recovery systems for decades now. That problem is long solved.

nomel 3y ago
That doesn’t solve the problem of people splashing it on themselves, from faulty handles, which I’ve experienced and seen within the last decade.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  I don't doubt your experience, but I'd rather put that one on abysmal lax standards in the US... here in Germany, myself and a couple of friends I just asked never have witnessed such a thing outside of freak accidents where someone knocked over a jerry can.
  - nomel 3y ago
    I believe the standard here is to change the handle once enough people complain about it splashing them. That was the case for the faulty handle that splashed me.
- specialist 3y ago
  My father (and me) washed engine parts with gasoline. And occasionally degreased our hands (followed by dish soap and sugar). We practically bathed in the stuff. Then my father discovered Goop. My father also dumped engine oil into storm drains. Then into the ground when that was banned. Yes, he was an idiot. (Becoming a treehugger was probably an act of rebellion.)
  - brewdad 3y ago
    My father used to change the car oil on the lawn rather than the driveway. He would do this less than 100 ft from the well that supplied our drinking water. At some point he stopped but it certainly lasted through multiple vehicles.
    - toss1 3y ago
      That well is probably contaminated still. Bought a new house in a semi-rural area, had only ever been farms, zero petrol stations ever existed within at least a 4-mile radius, and mostly downhill. Yet the water test found MTBE [0], Methyl tert-butyl ether, a gasoline additive. Had to maintain and replace an activated carbon filter in the water system ever since. The only possibility is some farmer decades ago dumping oil (IDK if it is in there, or gets in there from piston-ring blow-by) or leaking gasoline somewhere in the watershed. Awful. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether
      - peteradio 3y ago
        How deep are your wells there? It seems difficult for serious contamination to happen where I live outside of an poorly maintained well letting surface water down.
        mschuster91 3y ago
        Contamination of watersheds is easy - depending on which source you believe, a single drop can contaminate 100 to 600 liters of water. A single cigarette butt can contaminate 500 liters. And once the stuff is in the watershed/groundwater, it can be really really hard to get out of there, especially if the watershed is enclosed or doesn't have much outflow.
specialist 3y ago
Is that only for urban areas? I dimly recall old style nozzles still in use while driving cross country.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Good god, it seems like y'all dropped the requirement for Stage 2 vapor recovery systems in 2011 [1] based on the pretense of onboard filters in vehicles being enough... meanwhile here in the EU, where many member countries already had national requirements for years prior to that, we passed that requirement in 2009 [2]. The US attitude, particular to expensive systems, on anything emissions related continues to negatively amaze me. [1] https://www.tceq.texas.gov/airquality/mobilesource/vapor_recovery.html https://www.tceq.texas.gov/airquality/mobilesource/vapor_rec... [2] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:285:0036:0039:EN:PDF https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:...
  - brewdad 3y ago
    I'm sure it was a combination of not wanting to spend money and customers feeling the new pumps with vapor recovery systems were too difficult to operate and so sought out stations that hadn't yet upgraded.
s1mon 3y ago
At least in the US, vapor recovery seems to be implemented differently by state. In California I notice fumes when pumping gas far less than in New York. There seems to be various types of nozzles and legislation (some with rubber boots and some without). Since 2006 cars were apparently required to have vapor recovery systems built in, so the EPA has dropped requirements for systems at the pump. California (not surprisingly) still seems to lead the way in improving the effectiveness of the systems despite the EPA backing off. https://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/12/epa-says-outdated-gas-vapor-recovery-nozzles-no-longer-required/ https://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/12/epa-says-outdated-gas-va... https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/documents/workshop-vapor-recovery-nozzle-and-fill-pipe-specifications https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/documents/workshop-vapor-re... https://www.petrolplaza.com/knowledge/2057 https://www.petrolplaza.com/knowledge/2057
- rcme 3y ago
  Yea I was just thinking the other day how I haven’t actually smelled gas in a long time. I used to love the smell as a kid, but I’m happy it doesn’t seem like my children will get the same exposure.
eep_social 3y ago
I guess you are referring to stage 2 recovery systems on pump handles which are not uniformly required. As per usual, the US is large and regulations are often bare minimums with different states implementing different interpretations or additional requirements. Here’s the 2012 EPA ruling which loosened the requirement for stage 2 recovery systems: https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/FR-2012-05-16/2012-11846 https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/FR-2012-05-16/2012-11846 which led directly to this move in Arizona: https://agriculture.az.gov/weights-measures/fueling/gasoline-vapor-recovery/stage-ii-vapor-recovery-decommissioning https://agriculture.az.gov/weights-measures/fueling/gasoline...

rootsudo 3y ago

Can also say the same thing how teens can drive moving things that can blow up, crash, cause loss of limb and life... and untold amounts in property damage.

jabl 3y ago

To nitpick, at least in the EU regulations limit the benzene content in gasoline to a maximum of 1%. I had a vague recollection the limit was actually slightly stricter in the USA at 0.6%, but maybe my memory fails me.

wil421 3y ago
It’s 0.62% or less for gas.[1] [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918986/#:~:text=Benzene%20content%20in%20gasoline%20is%20federally%20regulated%2C%20with%20any%20refineries,benzene%20by%20volume%20%5B14%5D https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918986/#:~:tex....
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  No, 0.62% is the average: Benzene content in gasoline is federally regulated, with any refineries or importers required to average less than or equal to 0.62% benzene by volume.” The very next sentence in your link mentions it can have up to 2%, as I mentioned: “Generally, gasoline in the United States is likely to contain 0.5%–2.0% benzene by volume [14,15].” 18% of gasoline’s weight is the BTEX aromatics, benzene, toluene, ethylene-benzene, and xylene. https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-additive-than-btex/#:~:text=BTEX%2C%20also%20known%20as%20aromatics,up%20to%20minimum%20octane%20standards https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-addit.... This may be done depending on the season to increase the octane of gasoline. An average of 18% of these aromatics is not what I’d call just trace amounts…
  - jabl 3y ago
    Interesting that the regulations are done that way in terms of both an average and a maximum. I wonder how the average is determined, how many samples, and what is the size of a batch etc.? > 18% of gasoline’s weight is the BTEX aromatics, benzene, toluene, ethylene-benzene, and xylene. https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-addit https://www.fuelfreedom.org/is-there-a-better-gasoline-addit.... > This may be done depending on the season to increase the octane of gasoline. > An average of 18% of these aromatics is not what I’d call just trace amounts… Yes, BTEX is added to improve octane. It's also possible to increase octane by alkylation and isomerization, which produce branched alkanes which tend to be less toxic and burn cleaner than aromatics, but reformation/dehydrogenation which produces aromatics is cheaper.. But yes, while the other aromatics aren't exactly healthy, they're nowhere as dangerous as benzene. So it makes sense to minimize the amount of benzene via regulation, but be a bit less strict about the other aromatics. As an aside, a quick glance on that "fuelfreedom.org" site suggests they really like ethanol as a fuel additive, which makes me suspect they might be a front group for the corn ethanol lobby. So I'd be wary of taking what they say at face value.