4 ms·

I would add another big variable here: people who are lonely don't always recognize they want social connection, and it's because a lot of people don't have the

by 93po 3y ago

I would add another big variable here: people who are lonely don't always recognize they want social connection, and it's because a lot of people don't have the capability to form healthy, fulfilling relationships with other humans and therefore don't have much (if any) past history of feeling fulfilled by social interaction. If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely.

fluoridation 3y ago
>If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely. According to the GP, by wanting more fulfilling social interactions they'll become more lonely, not less. Just because you want something doesn't mean you'll get it. If someone can only afford cheap junk food but that's all they know, the last thing you should do is show them gourmet food so they know what they're missing out on.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  I deeply and completely disagree with you. In objective outcome space you are either healthy (socially, nutritionally) or you are not. Being desirous of the good outcome is step one to having a CHANCE of having one. If you somehow numb yourself to the possibility/desire, you are guaranteed the actual bad outcome. Even in subjective space, I think people actually feel better pursuing a good outcome even if they don't succeed, vs numbing themselves and pretending everything is fine as is.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    There's no such thing as "objective mental health". There's no test you can perform on a person to know if they're mentally well that doesn't involve asking them about it. If a person has no or little need for company, and has no or little company, how is that unhealthy? Who determines what an appropriate level of sociability is? I would have thought each person determines that for themselves, but you seem to disagree.
    - 93po 3y ago
      Humans are overwhelmingly social creatures by nature and virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life. There are exceptions of course, including people who have had traumatic experiences/abuse/PTSD/mental health issues that cause these relationships to be damaging until the underlying issue is resolved. Humans are also very, very bad at knowing what makes them happy. If a healthy person tells me they have one friend they see once a month and no other social outlets and they wouldn't want anything else, 99% of the time I'm going to assume they don't know themselves well enough to know that more relationships than that would make them happy.
      - temende 3y ago
        > virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life These studies never make sense because there's no way to objectively measure happiness, especially not in a way where you can compare two people's self-reported levels of "happiness". The word happiness itself is already is an over-loaded term that everyone has their own definition of. (At best you can measure proxy outcomes like measuring health based on relationships, but there are so many confounding variables it's hard to narrow it down.)
      - cowboysauce 3y ago
        > Humans are overwhelmingly social creatures by nature and virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life. Do these studies actually show that there aren't people who, for lack of a better word, are non-responders? Imagine if 95% of people require relationships to be happy and 5% don't. I would expect most studies to show the correlation exists, but it doesn't mean that 5% doesn't exist. What kind of upper bound do these studies provide here?
xyzelement 3y ago
This is spot on and I just made a comment to the same point. It's maybe analogous to someone who has always been overweight and therefore don't perceive a problem with it because they don't have a reference point on how much better being in shape feels.
hinkley 3y ago
I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. At the same time if I am forced into a situation where I’m alone and without internet, I fare much better and for much longer than people think I will. Certainly multiples of how long they can manage. At the end of the day I think we confuse coping with contentment. Some people can cope endlessly, that doesn’t mean they are happy about it.
- 93po 3y ago
  > I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. I would encourage you to challenge this belief. I'm not saying this is true of you, but I used to feel this way when I was insecure and overly worried about what others thought and felt. These days, I'm myself. I'm honest. I'm vulnerable (where appropriate). I'm also compassionate, and not being one of those "calls them hows I sees them" people. I imagine people like hearing you talk more than you realize. Sometimes they enjoy it but don't necessarily know how to respond, which is about them and not you. This is especially true if it's someone who's chosen to spend time around you and didn't just randomly meet you. I encourage people to be themselves (while being kind) and quit worrying. You'll attract the right people in life if you're authentic. You'll never attract the right people being someone else.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Oh I’ve certainly done that when I was younger, but there are levels of distress that are hard to miss once you realize you should check in with the other person. Sometimes it’s enough to say “Xs sure are cool” without launching into a full history.
  - MrVandemar 3y ago
    Conversely, the number of people I meet who rabbit on about the most pointless stuff is considerable, and most take no hints to go away and leave me alone or even dial it back. When in doubt, check in with your victim.

by 93po 3y ago

fluoridation 3y ago

>If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely. According to the GP, by wanting more fulfilling social interactions they'll become more lonely, not less. Just because you want something doesn't mean you'll get it. If someone can only afford cheap junk food but that's all they know, the last thing you should do is show them gourmet food so they know what they're missing out on.

xyzelement 3y ago
I deeply and completely disagree with you. In objective outcome space you are either healthy (socially, nutritionally) or you are not. Being desirous of the good outcome is step one to having a CHANCE of having one. If you somehow numb yourself to the possibility/desire, you are guaranteed the actual bad outcome. Even in subjective space, I think people actually feel better pursuing a good outcome even if they don't succeed, vs numbing themselves and pretending everything is fine as is.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  There's no such thing as "objective mental health". There's no test you can perform on a person to know if they're mentally well that doesn't involve asking them about it. If a person has no or little need for company, and has no or little company, how is that unhealthy? Who determines what an appropriate level of sociability is? I would have thought each person determines that for themselves, but you seem to disagree.
  - 93po 3y ago
    Humans are overwhelmingly social creatures by nature and virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life. There are exceptions of course, including people who have had traumatic experiences/abuse/PTSD/mental health issues that cause these relationships to be damaging until the underlying issue is resolved. Humans are also very, very bad at knowing what makes them happy. If a healthy person tells me they have one friend they see once a month and no other social outlets and they wouldn't want anything else, 99% of the time I'm going to assume they don't know themselves well enough to know that more relationships than that would make them happy.
    - temende 3y ago
      > virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life These studies never make sense because there's no way to objectively measure happiness, especially not in a way where you can compare two people's self-reported levels of "happiness". The word happiness itself is already is an over-loaded term that everyone has their own definition of. (At best you can measure proxy outcomes like measuring health based on relationships, but there are so many confounding variables it's hard to narrow it down.)
    - cowboysauce 3y ago
      > Humans are overwhelmingly social creatures by nature and virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life. Do these studies actually show that there aren't people who, for lack of a better word, are non-responders? Imagine if 95% of people require relationships to be happy and 5% don't. I would expect most studies to show the correlation exists, but it doesn't mean that 5% doesn't exist. What kind of upper bound do these studies provide here?

xyzelement 3y ago

This is spot on and I just made a comment to the same point. It's maybe analogous to someone who has always been overweight and therefore don't perceive a problem with it because they don't have a reference point on how much better being in shape feels.

hinkley 3y ago

I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. At the same time if I am forced into a situation where I’m alone and without internet, I fare much better and for much longer than people think I will. Certainly multiples of how long they can manage. At the end of the day I think we confuse coping with contentment. Some people can cope endlessly, that doesn’t mean they are happy about it.

93po 3y ago
> I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. I would encourage you to challenge this belief. I'm not saying this is true of you, but I used to feel this way when I was insecure and overly worried about what others thought and felt. These days, I'm myself. I'm honest. I'm vulnerable (where appropriate). I'm also compassionate, and not being one of those "calls them hows I sees them" people. I imagine people like hearing you talk more than you realize. Sometimes they enjoy it but don't necessarily know how to respond, which is about them and not you. This is especially true if it's someone who's chosen to spend time around you and didn't just randomly meet you. I encourage people to be themselves (while being kind) and quit worrying. You'll attract the right people in life if you're authentic. You'll never attract the right people being someone else.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Oh I’ve certainly done that when I was younger, but there are levels of distress that are hard to miss once you realize you should check in with the other person. Sometimes it’s enough to say “Xs sure are cool” without launching into a full history.
- MrVandemar 3y ago
  Conversely, the number of people I meet who rabbit on about the most pointless stuff is considerable, and most take no hints to go away and leave me alone or even dial it back. When in doubt, check in with your victim.