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Cicero invented the conspiracy of Catiline, had Roman citizens put to death without trial, and was a warrior on the side of the oligarchy (the Optimates) all hi

Cicero invented the conspiracy of Catiline, had Roman citizens put to death without trial, and was a warrior on the side of the oligarchy (the Optimates) all his life, despite the fact that they despised him. Sulla was a reactionary mass murderer. In the end, through Caesar, the Populares won, despite decades of political killings on behalf of the Optimates to defend their theft of public land.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Cicero invented the conspiracy of Catiline The “extent of the exaggeration is unclear and still debated; most classicists agree that the conspiracy occurred as broadly described – rather than being a Machiavellian invention of Cicero's – but concede that its actual threat to the republic was exaggerated for Cicero's benefit and to heighten later dramatic narratives” [1]. Think: Giuliani invoking 9/11 at every turn of conversation. > had Roman citizens put to death without trial The Senate let him by passing the SCU [2]. He was quelling a rebellion and Rome had no jails. Again, not unblemished good guy, but given the circumstances, within the shadow of doubt. > literally appointed and was a warrior on the side of the oligarchy (the Optimates) all his life This is a callous reading of his policy views. He advocated for stability. He wasn’t Roman patrician elite, and had experienced what political instability in Rome meant in the countryside. He had loose alignment with Rome’s conservatives, but in a pragmatic way, and was on good terms with Caesar and even Octavian. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catilinarian_conspiracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catilinarian_conspiracy [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senatus_consultum_ultimum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senatus_consultum_ultimum
- argentier 3y ago
  The Cicero-Giuliani comparison is hilarious, and not bad at all now that I think about it. Re SCU and the Conspiracy: that the SCU was first used against the Gracchi tells you something about its political motivations. The Senate was always a bastion of the Roman plutocracy. Also the SCU has been retconned, somewhat, by Cicero's partisans. It was invented late, during a bitter class war, and certainly doesn't count as one of the ancient traditions of the Roman republic. Most Roman historians were knights: most classical historians were gentlemen. This profoundly shapes our view of Roman history.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Cicero invented the conspiracy of Catiline The “extent of the exaggeration is unclear and still debated; most classicists agree that the conspiracy occurred as broadly described – rather than being a Machiavellian invention of Cicero's – but concede that its actual threat to the republic was exaggerated for Cicero's benefit and to heighten later dramatic narratives” [1]. Think: Giuliani invoking 9/11 at every turn of conversation. > had Roman citizens put to death without trial The Senate let him by passing the SCU [2]. He was quelling a rebellion and Rome had no jails. Again, not unblemished good guy, but given the circumstances, within the shadow of doubt. > literally appointed and was a warrior on the side of the oligarchy (the Optimates) all his life This is a callous reading of his policy views. He advocated for stability. He wasn’t Roman patrician elite, and had experienced what political instability in Rome meant in the countryside. He had loose alignment with Rome’s conservatives, but in a pragmatic way, and was on good terms with Caesar and even Octavian. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catilinarian_conspiracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catilinarian_conspiracy [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senatus_consultum_ultimum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senatus_consultum_ultimum

argentier 3y ago
The Cicero-Giuliani comparison is hilarious, and not bad at all now that I think about it. Re SCU and the Conspiracy: that the SCU was first used against the Gracchi tells you something about its political motivations. The Senate was always a bastion of the Roman plutocracy. Also the SCU has been retconned, somewhat, by Cicero's partisans. It was invented late, during a bitter class war, and certainly doesn't count as one of the ancient traditions of the Roman republic. Most Roman historians were knights: most classical historians were gentlemen. This profoundly shapes our view of Roman history.