5 ms·

>In most of Europe homes do have 3-phase power and large loads like an EV are required to use it. Yes and no, distribution is usually 3-phase so the 3 phases d

by jaclaz 3y ago

>In most of Europe homes do have 3-phase power and large loads like an EV are required to use it. Yes and no, distribution is usually 3-phase so the 3 phases do arrive to the building, but in a number of countries in Europe inside the home only 1 phase is used and the amount of available power (by contract) is a fraction of what the US are used to (of course depending by country, but it is rare that a house has a contract in excess of 3 or 6 kW). Most detached homes (the small subset that have a garage) won't likely be upgraded to more than 12 kW or so, still 1 phase, leaving not that much for charging. Possibly larger buildings with common parking space may be able to take advantage of the 3-phases distribution, still, particularly in cities, the big problem (once the EV's will be more common) will be the low voltage distribution lines and the transformers/cabins from medium to low voltage. EDIT: replaced "usually" with "in a number of countries in Europe" did not want to generalize

Symbiote 3y ago
Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. I never saw three-phase power in a house or flat in Britain, but part of the terrible plumbing is 7-9kW electric showers. (Cheaper to install than a shower connected to hot water, landlord doesn't care about the price to run it.)
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. Now now kids, play nicely. ;-) I think the underlying question we should really be asking here is not willy-waving over whether you have a three-phase supply or not, but rather how large your main fuse is (there's a euphemism for you !). I'm not familiar with Denmark, but I suspect even your fancy 80m² apartment with its three-phase supply will still only have a (relatively) tiny main fuse. TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon.
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    >TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon. Yep, and even if you have 3 phases and a large main fuse, the issue remains when you sum all the power needed on a same street in a city. And I apologize if I seemed to improperly generalize.
    - davrosthedalek 3y ago
      I hope I am wrong on that, but this is exactly one of the two largely unaddressed problems for a complete change to an EV fleet in countries like Germany. 1) Do you have enough power delivery available, especially with the push to electric heat-pump based heating. That seems to be a serious problem, I heard from some people that they are not allowed to connect their heat-pumps, even in newly constructed areas! Solvable, with political will, but I don't see the will. 2) Where will people charge who park on the streets. It seems there are technical solutions (electrified curbstones), but again, political will to change much infrastructure is required.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    40A on each phase, so 120A total — at least as I understand it [1]. I think that's plenty to charge a car, but good luck parking on the 4th floor. The oven and hob use all three phases. I think tumble driers used to, but they're now so efficient in the EU it's no longer worthwhile. Several ordinary 3-phase sockets have been installed by parking spaces in the basement, and are rented by residents with EVs. [1] The main breaker: https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/A9Z61440/residual-current-circuit-breaker-rccb-acti9-iid-4p-40a-bsi-type-30ma-double-terminal/ https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/A9Z61440/residual-current-c...
  - KaiserPro 3y ago
    > TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon. true, but a three phase CCS will do 22kw. the EU has the advantage that 240v needs half the current to get the same power as the US
    - lttlrck 3y ago
Y_Y 3y ago
An electric kettle can draw about 3kW, I've only once seen a home with a limit this absurdly low
- bombcar 3y ago
  As an aside, Europe/UK electric kettles are much better and faster and hotter than American ones, because they are twice the voltage. For real, compare them. The only ones in America that can even compete are hard-wired commercial deals.
- legulere 3y ago
  Apparently there exists even 1.5 kW in Italy: https://tariffe.segugio.it/guide-e-strumenti/domande-frequenti/cos-e-la-potenza-impegnata.aspx https://tariffe.segugio.it/guide-e-strumenti/domande-frequen...
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    Yes, though it is not used much anymore, in Italy most contracts are 3 kW, a number have been upgraded to 4.5 kW or to 6 kW, but that's it. Due to the way contracts are currently made, there is a fixed amount you pay for the availability of power (no matter if you use it or not) so everyone is on the lower possible amount. There is also a (relative) complication for new houses or (important) renewals, the electrical system needs to be designed, and while for systems up to 6 kW it is enough that the design is made by the technical representative of the installer/electrician, for larger power a project is needed by a certified electrical engineer, which has a cost. But as said the real issue is that the local infrastructure is simply not dimensioned for the large increments of power that are (or will be) required by the diffusion of heat pumps and induction stoves, let alone the recharging of EV's. I believe that the medium voltage (in Italy it is usually @12,000 or @20,000 volts) distribution can be enough or can be upgraded relatively easily, the issue is with the low voltage (the 380-400V) distribution lines and the transformers/electrical cabins in cities.
  - easyThrowaway 3y ago
    I've lived in north Italy for a while, the 3-phase 240v was uncommon but easily available if required. I guess the main issue are the southern parts of the country and the islands. Even then, most touristy housing locations were surprisingly modern in this regard though.
legulere 3y ago
I would say in many places in Europe three phase power is normal inside the home. In fact electric stoves including induction usually rely on three phases. I'm currently building a house in Germany and 34 kW was the smallest option and 86 kW the biggest option. 11 kW 3-phases is pretty much the standard for a Wallbox at your home. In Italy I know there's usually only very few power like 3 kW

by jaclaz 3y ago

Symbiote 3y ago

Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. I never saw three-phase power in a house or flat in Britain, but part of the terrible plumbing is 7-9kW electric showers. (Cheaper to install than a shower connected to hot water, landlord doesn't care about the price to run it.)

traceroute66 3y ago
> Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. Now now kids, play nicely. ;-) I think the underlying question we should really be asking here is not willy-waving over whether you have a three-phase supply or not, but rather how large your main fuse is (there's a euphemism for you !). I'm not familiar with Denmark, but I suspect even your fancy 80m² apartment with its three-phase supply will still only have a (relatively) tiny main fuse. TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon.
- jaclaz 3y ago
  >TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon. Yep, and even if you have 3 phases and a large main fuse, the issue remains when you sum all the power needed on a same street in a city. And I apologize if I seemed to improperly generalize.
  - davrosthedalek 3y ago
    I hope I am wrong on that, but this is exactly one of the two largely unaddressed problems for a complete change to an EV fleet in countries like Germany. 1) Do you have enough power delivery available, especially with the push to electric heat-pump based heating. That seems to be a serious problem, I heard from some people that they are not allowed to connect their heat-pumps, even in newly constructed areas! Solvable, with political will, but I don't see the will. 2) Where will people charge who park on the streets. It seems there are technical solutions (electrified curbstones), but again, political will to change much infrastructure is required.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  40A on each phase, so 120A total — at least as I understand it [1]. I think that's plenty to charge a car, but good luck parking on the 4th floor. The oven and hob use all three phases. I think tumble driers used to, but they're now so efficient in the EU it's no longer worthwhile. Several ordinary 3-phase sockets have been installed by parking spaces in the basement, and are rented by residents with EVs. [1] The main breaker: https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/A9Z61440/residual-current-circuit-breaker-rccb-acti9-iid-4p-40a-bsi-type-30ma-double-terminal/ https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/A9Z61440/residual-current-c...
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  > TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon. true, but a three phase CCS will do 22kw. the EU has the advantage that 240v needs half the current to get the same power as the US
  - lttlrck 3y ago

Y_Y 3y ago

An electric kettle can draw about 3kW, I've only once seen a home with a limit this absurdly low

bombcar 3y ago
As an aside, Europe/UK electric kettles are much better and faster and hotter than American ones, because they are twice the voltage. For real, compare them. The only ones in America that can even compete are hard-wired commercial deals.
legulere 3y ago
Apparently there exists even 1.5 kW in Italy: https://tariffe.segugio.it/guide-e-strumenti/domande-frequenti/cos-e-la-potenza-impegnata.aspx https://tariffe.segugio.it/guide-e-strumenti/domande-frequen...
- jaclaz 3y ago
  Yes, though it is not used much anymore, in Italy most contracts are 3 kW, a number have been upgraded to 4.5 kW or to 6 kW, but that's it. Due to the way contracts are currently made, there is a fixed amount you pay for the availability of power (no matter if you use it or not) so everyone is on the lower possible amount. There is also a (relative) complication for new houses or (important) renewals, the electrical system needs to be designed, and while for systems up to 6 kW it is enough that the design is made by the technical representative of the installer/electrician, for larger power a project is needed by a certified electrical engineer, which has a cost. But as said the real issue is that the local infrastructure is simply not dimensioned for the large increments of power that are (or will be) required by the diffusion of heat pumps and induction stoves, let alone the recharging of EV's. I believe that the medium voltage (in Italy it is usually @12,000 or @20,000 volts) distribution can be enough or can be upgraded relatively easily, the issue is with the low voltage (the 380-400V) distribution lines and the transformers/electrical cabins in cities.
- easyThrowaway 3y ago
  I've lived in north Italy for a while, the 3-phase 240v was uncommon but easily available if required. I guess the main issue are the southern parts of the country and the islands. Even then, most touristy housing locations were surprisingly modern in this regard though.

legulere 3y ago

I would say in many places in Europe three phase power is normal inside the home. In fact electric stoves including induction usually rely on three phases. I'm currently building a house in Germany and 34 kW was the smallest option and 86 kW the biggest option. 11 kW 3-phases is pretty much the standard for a Wallbox at your home. In Italy I know there's usually only very few power like 3 kW