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I'm happy to consider a non-Tesla (mostly because I'd really prefer a more traditional gauge cluster and more physical controls), but have struggled to find any

I'm happy to consider a non-Tesla (mostly because I'd really prefer a more traditional gauge cluster and more physical controls), but have struggled to find anything that beats the price for performance of the Model 3 Performance. And yes, I realize I'm a niche buyer.

dahfizz 3y ago
You're right that the model 3 performance is still a convincing product, but cars like the Mustang Mach-E and BMW i4 are coming close. A few years ago there was no good option besides tesla, but in another couple years tesla will have fallen behind the competition
- vxNsr 3y ago
  BMW in my circles has the reputation as being a brand you buy when you can afford to have a car in the shop most of the time. Most American brands have reputation as just being really poorly built and bad value props. Not sure how either of those two options overcomes that view.
  - w0m 3y ago
    >a brand you buy when you can afford to have a car in the shop most of the time TBF, unless you are in a Niche market (off roading a land rover) - it's generally hard to buy a bad car today. Is a Camry more reliable than a 3 series? Yes. But you're talking 4 9s vs 5 under warranty; being near a good dealership with good service is markedly more important than brand reputation. If my Audi/BMW/Volvo are in the shop for a week every other year and they easily give a loaner to cover, does it really matter? At that point, the cup holder being 5% better placed for convenient access matters more.
    - vxNsr 3y ago
      Once you’re out of warranty BMW tend to “implode” like everything breaks at once. But even in warranty dealing with going to the dealership and getting the repair is a huge hassle vs just having a car that stays out of your way. Time is our most valuable asset and giving it up to stupid things like waiting in dealership waiting rooms, regardless of how much free coffee and popcorn they have just isn’t my idea of time well spent.
      - w0m 3y ago
        We had a first-year X1. Starter went after ~10,000 miles. Dealership was garbage (hence my comments above), but still towed us home and dropped off a loaner-car for the ~week it took to fix. Annoying, wasted ~hour waiting for toe truck to pick us up; but overall not a horrendous experience (despite piling 3 adults and 2 dogs into toe truck). I had a 2010 Impreza, ~first month or two of ownership - dashboard went nuts and i pulled over. Car got towed to dealership - they found nothing wrong. Lost an evening and no loaner car in the ~48h it took them to determine 'nothing wrong'. Two 'new' cars - vastly better experience with one than the other. Anecdotal of course; but > even in warranty dealing with going to the dealership and getting the repair is a huge You get that with any car - my Tacoma was indestructible and still had multiple recalls I had to drop it off for. You are correct if you're talking driving a car into the ground though - I'd vastly rather have a 10 y/o v6 Taco than an 8 y/o supercharged Dakota.
  - dahfizz 3y ago
    Tesla also has quite the reputation for cheaply built cars that are outrageously expensive to repair
    - jandrese 3y ago
      The flipside is that you hardly ever have to bring a Tesla into the shop. In the end they are fairly cheap to maintain. https://www.automoblog.net/research/maintenance/tesla-maintenance-cost/ https://www.automoblog.net/research/maintenance/tesla-mainte...
    - vxNsr 3y ago
      Outrageously expensive to repair sure (though which car isn’t these days, my corrolla got into a fender bender and fixing the bumper was north of $1000), but I’m talking about always in the shop due to shoddy construction. Afaik that doesn’t really apply to teslas.
- w0m 3y ago
  Mach E looks like a Boat in comparison to me (I also dislike the Y), doesn't feel like a direct competitor. I should test drive regardless though.
- Reason077 3y ago
  > "A few years ago there was no good option besides tesla, but in another couple years tesla will have fallen behind the competition" Much of the competition still struggles with software. Sure you can use Apple CarPlay or whatever for the basics, but as far as the full software suite goes, there isn't yet much that comes close to Tesla's performance, ease-of-use, UX, functionality, hardware integration, automatic over-the-air updates, etc...
  - dahfizz 3y ago
    This is my point. Tesla is good at a small handful of things, and making cars is not one of them. They could sell batteries, charging infra, software, and whatever else to the companies that are competent at building (and fixing!!) cars. They aren't going to remain competitive on the cars themselves
    - Reason077 3y ago
      > "Tesla is good at a small handful of things, and making cars is not one of them." Tesla is manufacturing EVs at much greater volumes than almost anyone else, and doing so very profitably. They also score consistently high on customer satisfaction. Seems like making cars is exactly what Tesla has become very good at in recent years? Sure, Tesla may not make the most luxurious, nor the cheapest cars on the market. But right now they seem to be very successfully hitting a sweet spot in the middle.
    - jdminhbg 3y ago
      I still cannot figure out what Car People mean when they say Tesla is bad at making cars. What are you looking at that normal people don't see? The one thing I agree about is the yoke steering wheel, but that's on a high-end car nobody seems to actually buy.
      - xeromal 3y ago
        Everyone loves to complain about panel gaps and that's usually what drives them mad. lol. I've never cared for panel gaps or minimalists interiors though.

dahfizz 3y ago

You're right that the model 3 performance is still a convincing product, but cars like the Mustang Mach-E and BMW i4 are coming close. A few years ago there was no good option besides tesla, but in another couple years tesla will have fallen behind the competition

vxNsr 3y ago
BMW in my circles has the reputation as being a brand you buy when you can afford to have a car in the shop most of the time. Most American brands have reputation as just being really poorly built and bad value props. Not sure how either of those two options overcomes that view.
- w0m 3y ago
  >a brand you buy when you can afford to have a car in the shop most of the time TBF, unless you are in a Niche market (off roading a land rover) - it's generally hard to buy a bad car today. Is a Camry more reliable than a 3 series? Yes. But you're talking 4 9s vs 5 under warranty; being near a good dealership with good service is markedly more important than brand reputation. If my Audi/BMW/Volvo are in the shop for a week every other year and they easily give a loaner to cover, does it really matter? At that point, the cup holder being 5% better placed for convenient access matters more.
  - vxNsr 3y ago
    Once you’re out of warranty BMW tend to “implode” like everything breaks at once. But even in warranty dealing with going to the dealership and getting the repair is a huge hassle vs just having a car that stays out of your way. Time is our most valuable asset and giving it up to stupid things like waiting in dealership waiting rooms, regardless of how much free coffee and popcorn they have just isn’t my idea of time well spent.
    - w0m 3y ago
      We had a first-year X1. Starter went after ~10,000 miles. Dealership was garbage (hence my comments above), but still towed us home and dropped off a loaner-car for the ~week it took to fix. Annoying, wasted ~hour waiting for toe truck to pick us up; but overall not a horrendous experience (despite piling 3 adults and 2 dogs into toe truck). I had a 2010 Impreza, ~first month or two of ownership - dashboard went nuts and i pulled over. Car got towed to dealership - they found nothing wrong. Lost an evening and no loaner car in the ~48h it took them to determine 'nothing wrong'. Two 'new' cars - vastly better experience with one than the other. Anecdotal of course; but > even in warranty dealing with going to the dealership and getting the repair is a huge You get that with any car - my Tacoma was indestructible and still had multiple recalls I had to drop it off for. You are correct if you're talking driving a car into the ground though - I'd vastly rather have a 10 y/o v6 Taco than an 8 y/o supercharged Dakota.
- dahfizz 3y ago
  Tesla also has quite the reputation for cheaply built cars that are outrageously expensive to repair
  - jandrese 3y ago
    The flipside is that you hardly ever have to bring a Tesla into the shop. In the end they are fairly cheap to maintain. https://www.automoblog.net/research/maintenance/tesla-maintenance-cost/ https://www.automoblog.net/research/maintenance/tesla-mainte...
  - vxNsr 3y ago
    Outrageously expensive to repair sure (though which car isn’t these days, my corrolla got into a fender bender and fixing the bumper was north of $1000), but I’m talking about always in the shop due to shoddy construction. Afaik that doesn’t really apply to teslas.
w0m 3y ago
Mach E looks like a Boat in comparison to me (I also dislike the Y), doesn't feel like a direct competitor. I should test drive regardless though.
Reason077 3y ago
> "A few years ago there was no good option besides tesla, but in another couple years tesla will have fallen behind the competition" Much of the competition still struggles with software. Sure you can use Apple CarPlay or whatever for the basics, but as far as the full software suite goes, there isn't yet much that comes close to Tesla's performance, ease-of-use, UX, functionality, hardware integration, automatic over-the-air updates, etc...
- dahfizz 3y ago
  This is my point. Tesla is good at a small handful of things, and making cars is not one of them. They could sell batteries, charging infra, software, and whatever else to the companies that are competent at building (and fixing!!) cars. They aren't going to remain competitive on the cars themselves
  - Reason077 3y ago
    > "Tesla is good at a small handful of things, and making cars is not one of them." Tesla is manufacturing EVs at much greater volumes than almost anyone else, and doing so very profitably. They also score consistently high on customer satisfaction. Seems like making cars is exactly what Tesla has become very good at in recent years? Sure, Tesla may not make the most luxurious, nor the cheapest cars on the market. But right now they seem to be very successfully hitting a sweet spot in the middle.
  - jdminhbg 3y ago
    I still cannot figure out what Car People mean when they say Tesla is bad at making cars. What are you looking at that normal people don't see? The one thing I agree about is the yoke steering wheel, but that's on a high-end car nobody seems to actually buy.
    - xeromal 3y ago
      Everyone loves to complain about panel gaps and that's usually what drives them mad. lol. I've never cared for panel gaps or minimalists interiors though.