4 ms·

> And I'm coming from a position of really loving NeXTStep and Classic Macs. In the classic era, we had consistent design guidance. Now it's a mish-mash of rand

> And I'm coming from a position of really loving NeXTStep and Classic Macs. In the classic era, we had consistent design guidance. Now it's a mish-mash of random recommendations which may or may not carry on to the next OS rev. And NeXTStep had it's problems, but at least it booted consistently. If your argument is that Linux or Windows are any better on this front, I beg to differ. Don't get me wrong. I love Linux. But it's hardly a bastion of design consistency or user-friendliness. As for Windows? I mean... come on. When's the last time anyone tried to steal design ideas from Microsoft? Everything good about Windows was stolen from somewhere else, and, in my not-so-humble opinion, implemented poorly.

retrocryptid 3y ago
Gnome is a pain and lxde has it's faults. But both launch consistently. Both log usable messages somewhere into /var/log. Both have consistent behavior across releases. I make extensive use of the "Always on Visible Workspace" feature. It has been part of Gnome for... at least 10 years. And cde and lxde for 20 years. On the Mac it appears to now be completely gone. The previous rev of the OS it was there. The rev before that it would only work on Apple monitors. A couple revs before that it worked and before that there was a rev where it would only work on the laptop screen (not external monitors.) I believe I place a higher premium on consistency across releases than you do. I also believe the user should be telling the computer what to do rather than apple telling me they want to change the way I work. But we're all different in that regard.
- nickelcitymario 3y ago
  > I also believe the user should be telling the computer what to do rather than apple telling me they want to change the way I work. But we're all different in that regard. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to believe. My only contention is that Apple has never hidden their preference for doing exactly this. They're a highly opinionated company. Their platforms have always professed "this is the best way, and if you don't like it, we're not for you." Sounds like they're not for you.
retrocryptid 3y ago
And every mac user I know likes to dis windows for having to edit the registry. But in order to get external networking dongles, monitors and facetime to work, I have to make extensive use of the `defaults` program from the command line. This is not a defense of windows, though it's been several years since I've had to perform registry surgery to enable basic behaviors. It is a plea that apple make their software work so I don't have to keep monkeying with its registry^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpreferences tree.
linguae 3y ago
“When’s the last time anyone tried to steal design ideas from Microsoft?” I remember a time when Linux desktops were heavily influenced by Windows 95. In fact, the Windows 95 interface still holds up to this day. While certain design elements and styling choices were influenced by NeXTSTEP, other ideas such as the taskbar and the Start menu were original. My favorite era of Microsoft software from a UI/UX standpoint is the period between Windows 95 and Windows 2000, alongside other Microsoft products such as Office 97/2000 and Visual Basic 6. I particularly liked the flat toolbars and the Tahoma font introduced in Office 97 and spreading to the rest of the Microsoft ecosystem; a Windows 2000 installation with Office 97/2000 and Visual Basic 6 looked quite consistent.
- retrocryptid 3y ago
  If you don't like the FVWM Windows95 theme, don't use the FVWM Windows95 theme. I will say, however, the Windows95 design language is MUCH SUPERIOR to either MacOS 7 or MacOS 8. Windows had consistent decoration and behavior. #a11y features actually worked. MSFT continues to do font rendering wrong, but just about everything else is more consistent. But in this regard, I sort of prefer linux. Gnome can be configured to "get out of your way" and simply place windows on the screen. The thing I dislike about macOS is its features change between revision and apparently system-specific software has an undue influence on how well basic functionality works. (my mbp is a highly inconsistent, but a previous rev mbp or mac-mini isn't. or rather, it's inconsistent on a smaller, different set of features.) It's been almost 20 years since we got to the point where you didn't have to manually configure x. And since then I have never seen features around the edge of the screen (menu bars, docks, etc.) render off the edge of the screen. I saw that this morning on my MBP running macOS. The best minds in corporate support suggest apple shipped this week's MBPs with the wrong graphics driver. (we updated the driver and changed a few defaults and it works fine now. I can actually boot far enough to get a terminal window open.)
goosedragons 3y ago
It's arguable Microsoft started the whole flat design trend with their Metro UI starting with Windows Media Center and the Zune. Whether that's good or bad is up to you. Windows Snap is a feature basically every Linux desktop cloned about 1 week after Microsoft showed it off during the reveal of Windows 7. MacOS has about 10,000 apps to do the same thing but poorly. I still think nobody has made a better tablet interface than Windows 8.
retrocryptid 3y ago
I don't use windows that much. My experience is with (mostly) Debian, some Ubuntu and less Red Hat/Fedora/Centos. Some VMS, some Solaris (which thankfully don't change that much.) I do not doubt there are people who enjoy macOS and do not use the features about which I am complaining. I am not saying they should be driven from their homes and publicly shamed (which some people seem to think I am doing.) I am saying there are more than a few people for which the current window manager does not work well. I am one of those people. The author of the article referenced is another of these people. I do not believe that either of them are you. I am not implying that macOS does not work for you. I do not have first hand experience with your use of macOS. But I am saying... theApple? window manager behavior is, in my opinion, sub-optimal and can be improved. I was not talking about the window manager behavior of windows or any of the myriad of Linux options. I was talking about the macOS window manager. It's the window manager on the Mac, which is a product produced by Apple. It is not the same as Linux or Windows which are developed and supported by different organizations. As for your assertion that people have not stolen ideas from "windows" I have some very bad news for you. It turns out that both Apple and Microsoft stole from other organizations. Mostly Xerox, some Tektronix, some from the Athena project. There's even a paper trail where apple says "hey. we'll let you buy apple stock cheap if you let us look at what you're doing at parc." And Xerox responds with "where do I sign!?" At one time Apple had the user interface research group that was the envy of the world: glass, tessler, etc. They got steved in '97 and replaced with an exceedingly talented designer who did not have a history of running user studies. And we got the "we know how you should do this" mentality. If you want to do things the way apple wants you to do them, then great. You should do them that way. But thinking that other people want to do things the way you want to do them is... well... it's probably the Apple way... which is why I don't buy apple products. Also... when was the last time someone stole an idea from apple?
- nickelcitymario 3y ago
  I think we got off on the wrong foot, and I'll take ownership of that. Love Debian and Ubuntu and most Linux distros. When I'm spending my own money on a machine for personal use, I always err on the side of a PC with a Linux distro. My main reason for using a Mac is it's the closest to a Linux box that still has support for the software I have to use every day -- i.e. mainly the Adobe suite. I also (selfishly) recommend Macs to most people because they hardly ever need to come running to me for IT support. I'm also not claiming Apple doesn't steal. They steal liberally. I am claiming, perhaps wrongly if you have good evidence, that people steal from Apple far more than anyone steals from Microsoft or any other tech company that I can think of. See the history of smartphones, tablets, and laptops for the past 20 years. From my perspective, it's been a history of Apple doing something different, and the industry blindly following them, even when it's not clear it's the right idea. (For example, I personally hate the now-ubiquitous camera notches on phones.) At a minimum, you have to concede Apple's design ethos is heavily stolen by virtually everyone. So much so that I would struggle to find a laptop or phone that didn't look like an Apple knock-off. As for the window manager, it works great for me. Doesn't work great for you. I think I can still maintain the assertion that they're simply different, with different priorities. Your priorities aren't wrong, but neither are those found in MacOS. They're just wrong for you. The Apple Way is very much "We've figured this stuff out so you don't have to." Of course, no solution is perfect for 100% of people. But I think they've done a better job than most at coming up with something that works really well for most people. I've never run into an issue that made me wonder how I could multitask on a Mac.

retrocryptid 3y ago

Gnome is a pain and lxde has it's faults. But both launch consistently. Both log usable messages somewhere into /var/log. Both have consistent behavior across releases. I make extensive use of the "Always on Visible Workspace" feature. It has been part of Gnome for... at least 10 years. And cde and lxde for 20 years. On the Mac it appears to now be completely gone. The previous rev of the OS it was there. The rev before that it would only work on Apple monitors. A couple revs before that it worked and before that there was a rev where it would only work on the laptop screen (not external monitors.) I believe I place a higher premium on consistency across releases than you do. I also believe the user should be telling the computer what to do rather than apple telling me they want to change the way I work. But we're all different in that regard.

nickelcitymario 3y ago
> I also believe the user should be telling the computer what to do rather than apple telling me they want to change the way I work. But we're all different in that regard. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to believe. My only contention is that Apple has never hidden their preference for doing exactly this. They're a highly opinionated company. Their platforms have always professed "this is the best way, and if you don't like it, we're not for you." Sounds like they're not for you.

retrocryptid 3y ago

And every mac user I know likes to dis windows for having to edit the registry. But in order to get external networking dongles, monitors and facetime to work, I have to make extensive use of the `defaults` program from the command line. This is not a defense of windows, though it's been several years since I've had to perform registry surgery to enable basic behaviors. It is a plea that apple make their software work so I don't have to keep monkeying with its registry^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpreferences tree.

linguae 3y ago

“When’s the last time anyone tried to steal design ideas from Microsoft?” I remember a time when Linux desktops were heavily influenced by Windows 95. In fact, the Windows 95 interface still holds up to this day. While certain design elements and styling choices were influenced by NeXTSTEP, other ideas such as the taskbar and the Start menu were original. My favorite era of Microsoft software from a UI/UX standpoint is the period between Windows 95 and Windows 2000, alongside other Microsoft products such as Office 97/2000 and Visual Basic 6. I particularly liked the flat toolbars and the Tahoma font introduced in Office 97 and spreading to the rest of the Microsoft ecosystem; a Windows 2000 installation with Office 97/2000 and Visual Basic 6 looked quite consistent.

retrocryptid 3y ago
If you don't like the FVWM Windows95 theme, don't use the FVWM Windows95 theme. I will say, however, the Windows95 design language is MUCH SUPERIOR to either MacOS 7 or MacOS 8. Windows had consistent decoration and behavior. #a11y features actually worked. MSFT continues to do font rendering wrong, but just about everything else is more consistent. But in this regard, I sort of prefer linux. Gnome can be configured to "get out of your way" and simply place windows on the screen. The thing I dislike about macOS is its features change between revision and apparently system-specific software has an undue influence on how well basic functionality works. (my mbp is a highly inconsistent, but a previous rev mbp or mac-mini isn't. or rather, it's inconsistent on a smaller, different set of features.) It's been almost 20 years since we got to the point where you didn't have to manually configure x. And since then I have never seen features around the edge of the screen (menu bars, docks, etc.) render off the edge of the screen. I saw that this morning on my MBP running macOS. The best minds in corporate support suggest apple shipped this week's MBPs with the wrong graphics driver. (we updated the driver and changed a few defaults and it works fine now. I can actually boot far enough to get a terminal window open.)

goosedragons 3y ago

It's arguable Microsoft started the whole flat design trend with their Metro UI starting with Windows Media Center and the Zune. Whether that's good or bad is up to you. Windows Snap is a feature basically every Linux desktop cloned about 1 week after Microsoft showed it off during the reveal of Windows 7. MacOS has about 10,000 apps to do the same thing but poorly. I still think nobody has made a better tablet interface than Windows 8.

retrocryptid 3y ago

I don't use windows that much. My experience is with (mostly) Debian, some Ubuntu and less Red Hat/Fedora/Centos. Some VMS, some Solaris (which thankfully don't change that much.) I do not doubt there are people who enjoy macOS and do not use the features about which I am complaining. I am not saying they should be driven from their homes and publicly shamed (which some people seem to think I am doing.) I am saying there are more than a few people for which the current window manager does not work well. I am one of those people. The author of the article referenced is another of these people. I do not believe that either of them are you. I am not implying that macOS does not work for you. I do not have first hand experience with your use of macOS. But I am saying... theApple? window manager behavior is, in my opinion, sub-optimal and can be improved. I was not talking about the window manager behavior of windows or any of the myriad of Linux options. I was talking about the macOS window manager. It's the window manager on the Mac, which is a product produced by Apple. It is not the same as Linux or Windows which are developed and supported by different organizations. As for your assertion that people have not stolen ideas from "windows" I have some very bad news for you. It turns out that both Apple and Microsoft stole from other organizations. Mostly Xerox, some Tektronix, some from the Athena project. There's even a paper trail where apple says "hey. we'll let you buy apple stock cheap if you let us look at what you're doing at parc." And Xerox responds with "where do I sign!?" At one time Apple had the user interface research group that was the envy of the world: glass, tessler, etc. They got steved in '97 and replaced with an exceedingly talented designer who did not have a history of running user studies. And we got the "we know how you should do this" mentality. If you want to do things the way apple wants you to do them, then great. You should do them that way. But thinking that other people want to do things the way you want to do them is... well... it's probably the Apple way... which is why I don't buy apple products. Also... when was the last time someone stole an idea from apple?

nickelcitymario 3y ago
I think we got off on the wrong foot, and I'll take ownership of that. Love Debian and Ubuntu and most Linux distros. When I'm spending my own money on a machine for personal use, I always err on the side of a PC with a Linux distro. My main reason for using a Mac is it's the closest to a Linux box that still has support for the software I have to use every day -- i.e. mainly the Adobe suite. I also (selfishly) recommend Macs to most people because they hardly ever need to come running to me for IT support. I'm also not claiming Apple doesn't steal. They steal liberally. I am claiming, perhaps wrongly if you have good evidence, that people steal from Apple far more than anyone steals from Microsoft or any other tech company that I can think of. See the history of smartphones, tablets, and laptops for the past 20 years. From my perspective, it's been a history of Apple doing something different, and the industry blindly following them, even when it's not clear it's the right idea. (For example, I personally hate the now-ubiquitous camera notches on phones.) At a minimum, you have to concede Apple's design ethos is heavily stolen by virtually everyone. So much so that I would struggle to find a laptop or phone that didn't look like an Apple knock-off. As for the window manager, it works great for me. Doesn't work great for you. I think I can still maintain the assertion that they're simply different, with different priorities. Your priorities aren't wrong, but neither are those found in MacOS. They're just wrong for you. The Apple Way is very much "We've figured this stuff out so you don't have to." Of course, no solution is perfect for 100% of people. But I think they've done a better job than most at coming up with something that works really well for most people. I've never run into an issue that made me wonder how I could multitask on a Mac.