9 ms·

CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000

by conk 3y ago

CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000V). I think it will be a while before we see cars able to charge anywhere near this, but there is a trend right now of big EV pickups with massive batteries. Higher power chargers means faster charge times. The only downside I see with NACS is you can’t level 2 charge using 3-phase power. This isn’t really an issue in North America because it’s super rare to see 3 phase power at someone’s home. In most of Europe homes do have 3-phase power and large loads like an EV are required to use it. This is one reason why Tesla uses CCS2 in Europe. The NACS connect doesn’t have the space for a 3rd power pin.

wlesieutre 3y ago
CCS1 already doesn't support 3-phase power, so it's not like switching from CCS1 to NACS in the US is losing anything there. It wouldn't work as-is for Europe because of that, but they're so far into CCS2 adoption that they wouldn't consider it regardless.
- sebazzz 3y ago
  To clarify: 3-phase power is irrelevant when it comes to CCS. The point of the Combined Charging System is the "combined". It is the signalling pins in the upper part of the Mennekes or J1772 connector and the large DC connectors in the bottom part. For slow charging, 3-phase power is relevant (the IEC Type 2 / Mennekes connector in this case).
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    He was saying that CCS1 in the US uses J1772 which does not support 3-phase power.
    - sebazzz 3y ago
      And referring to Europe
saalweachter 3y ago
I'm a little confused by fast charging standards, to be honest. 1MW is 20x the maximum draw of a standard house, and 800x the average draw of a US house. The hydro plant down the road generates 5MW. It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.
- bloggie 3y ago
  It is indeed totally insane, but this is what is being worked on, not necessairly for cars but trucks and semi trucks for example that have much larger batteries than a car. Already to achieve 250+ kW charging stations have to have huge cables and watercooled connectors, here's one such installation I saw some years ago https://i.imgur.com/BpG4QAa.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BpG4QAa.jpg and an example of a cooled connector for 0.5 MW https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-ca/products/dc-charging-cable-ev-t1hpcc-dc500a-50m50ecbk11-1085658 https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-ca/products/dc-charging-ca...
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    I assume the next jump in power will come from voltage. A Model 3 pulls ~600A when charging at 250kW, because it's relatively low voltage. If they alter the charging design to accept 800 or 1000V we could see over half a MW without a change in cable design. But I'd guess at this point that would be moot because the cell charging rate is the real limit anyway.
    - Kirby64 3y ago
      Migrating to higher voltage doesn't do anything to charge batteries faster. The only advantage is that you can decrease the size of the cabling since current goes down. On the other side though, you need to move all drive circuitry, motors, etc, to handle higher voltage architecture, which may end of costing more overall.
      - cyberax 3y ago
        Not necessarily. Ford uses a 400V-based architecture, but it can charge at 800V by connected two sections of the battery in series.
sebazzz 3y ago
Actually NACS doesn't claim anything regarding current, see the spec[0]. It only claims 1000 volts, and the current is left implementation-defined citing that 900A with a non-liquid cooled inlet. [0]: https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf%22 https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Cha...
jaclaz 3y ago
>In most of Europe homes do have 3-phase power and large loads like an EV are required to use it. Yes and no, distribution is usually 3-phase so the 3 phases do arrive to the building, but in a number of countries in Europe inside the home only 1 phase is used and the amount of available power (by contract) is a fraction of what the US are used to (of course depending by country, but it is rare that a house has a contract in excess of 3 or 6 kW). Most detached homes (the small subset that have a garage) won't likely be upgraded to more than 12 kW or so, still 1 phase, leaving not that much for charging. Possibly larger buildings with common parking space may be able to take advantage of the 3-phases distribution, still, particularly in cities, the big problem (once the EV's will be more common) will be the low voltage distribution lines and the transformers/cabins from medium to low voltage. EDIT: replaced "usually" with "in a number of countries in Europe" did not want to generalize
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. I never saw three-phase power in a house or flat in Britain, but part of the terrible plumbing is 7-9kW electric showers. (Cheaper to install than a shower connected to hot water, landlord doesn't care about the price to run it.)
  - traceroute66 3y ago
    > Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. Now now kids, play nicely. ;-) I think the underlying question we should really be asking here is not willy-waving over whether you have a three-phase supply or not, but rather how large your main fuse is (there's a euphemism for you !). I'm not familiar with Denmark, but I suspect even your fancy 80m² apartment with its three-phase supply will still only have a (relatively) tiny main fuse. TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon.
    - jaclaz 3y ago
Kirby64 3y ago
To note, the J1772 connector (the mainstream AC charging port in most cars in the US) also does not have 3 phase support. For commercial charging, the typical approach is to just use 2 phases of a 3 phase commercial supply for AC charging. This basically means commercial charging is limited to 208V (2 phases of 120V that are 120 deg out of phase). So, there's no loss of function going from CCS in the US to NACS.

by conk 3y ago

wlesieutre 3y ago

CCS1 already doesn't support 3-phase power, so it's not like switching from CCS1 to NACS in the US is losing anything there. It wouldn't work as-is for Europe because of that, but they're so far into CCS2 adoption that they wouldn't consider it regardless.

sebazzz 3y ago
To clarify: 3-phase power is irrelevant when it comes to CCS. The point of the Combined Charging System is the "combined". It is the signalling pins in the upper part of the Mennekes or J1772 connector and the large DC connectors in the bottom part. For slow charging, 3-phase power is relevant (the IEC Type 2 / Mennekes connector in this case).
- _ea1k 3y ago
  He was saying that CCS1 in the US uses J1772 which does not support 3-phase power.
  - sebazzz 3y ago
    And referring to Europe

saalweachter 3y ago

I'm a little confused by fast charging standards, to be honest. 1MW is 20x the maximum draw of a standard house, and 800x the average draw of a US house. The hydro plant down the road generates 5MW. It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.

bloggie 3y ago
It is indeed totally insane, but this is what is being worked on, not necessairly for cars but trucks and semi trucks for example that have much larger batteries than a car. Already to achieve 250+ kW charging stations have to have huge cables and watercooled connectors, here's one such installation I saw some years ago https://i.imgur.com/BpG4QAa.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BpG4QAa.jpg and an example of a cooled connector for 0.5 MW https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-ca/products/dc-charging-cable-ev-t1hpcc-dc500a-50m50ecbk11-1085658 https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-ca/products/dc-charging-ca...
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  I assume the next jump in power will come from voltage. A Model 3 pulls ~600A when charging at 250kW, because it's relatively low voltage. If they alter the charging design to accept 800 or 1000V we could see over half a MW without a change in cable design. But I'd guess at this point that would be moot because the cell charging rate is the real limit anyway.
  - Kirby64 3y ago
    Migrating to higher voltage doesn't do anything to charge batteries faster. The only advantage is that you can decrease the size of the cabling since current goes down. On the other side though, you need to move all drive circuitry, motors, etc, to handle higher voltage architecture, which may end of costing more overall.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      Not necessarily. Ford uses a 400V-based architecture, but it can charge at 800V by connected two sections of the battery in series.

sebazzz 3y ago

Actually NACS doesn't claim anything regarding current, see the spec[0]. It only claims 1000 volts, and the current is left implementation-defined citing that 900A with a non-liquid cooled inlet. [0]: https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf%22 https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Cha...

jaclaz 3y ago

>In most of Europe homes do have 3-phase power and large loads like an EV are required to use it. Yes and no, distribution is usually 3-phase so the 3 phases do arrive to the building, but in a number of countries in Europe inside the home only 1 phase is used and the amount of available power (by contract) is a fraction of what the US are used to (of course depending by country, but it is rare that a house has a contract in excess of 3 or 6 kW). Most detached homes (the small subset that have a garage) won't likely be upgraded to more than 12 kW or so, still 1 phase, leaving not that much for charging. Possibly larger buildings with common parking space may be able to take advantage of the 3-phases distribution, still, particularly in cities, the big problem (once the EV's will be more common) will be the low voltage distribution lines and the transformers/cabins from medium to low voltage. EDIT: replaced "usually" with "in a number of countries in Europe" did not want to generalize

Symbiote 3y ago
Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. I never saw three-phase power in a house or flat in Britain, but part of the terrible plumbing is 7-9kW electric showers. (Cheaper to install than a shower connected to hot water, landlord doesn't care about the price to run it.)
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. Now now kids, play nicely. ;-) I think the underlying question we should really be asking here is not willy-waving over whether you have a three-phase supply or not, but rather how large your main fuse is (there's a euphemism for you !). I'm not familiar with Denmark, but I suspect even your fancy 80m² apartment with its three-phase supply will still only have a (relatively) tiny main fuse. TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon.
  - jaclaz 3y ago

Kirby64 3y ago

To note, the J1772 connector (the mainstream AC charging port in most cars in the US) also does not have 3 phase support. For commercial charging, the typical approach is to just use 2 phases of a 3 phase commercial supply for AC charging. This basically means commercial charging is limited to 208V (2 phases of 120V that are 120 deg out of phase). So, there's no loss of function going from CCS in the US to NACS.