5 ms·

Before we go in circles, one definition of loneliness is the difference between the amount (and depth) of social connection desired and the amount obtained. Th

by wenc 3y ago

Before we go in circles, one definition of loneliness is the difference between the amount (and depth) of social connection desired and the amount obtained. There are two variables, both adjustable. Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero. If you’re an introvert and don’t desire social connection and have none, you’re fine. But being in a situation that reminds you of your lack sometimes creates that desire, which creates that delta. Likewise, if you’re an extrovert, you desire lots of social connection and when it falls below what you actually have you feel sad. We can’t always control the amount of social connection we get due to circumstances, but we can sometimes control the amount of desire we have by avoiding triggers that remind us.

supriyo-biswas 3y ago
This is a great way to look at introversion/extroversion.
noisy_boy 3y ago
> Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero. And when the delta becomes negative, loneliness turns into tiredness. E.g. when an introvert doesn't desire social connection and has too much.
93po 3y ago
I would add another big variable here: people who are lonely don't always recognize they want social connection, and it's because a lot of people don't have the capability to form healthy, fulfilling relationships with other humans and therefore don't have much (if any) past history of feeling fulfilled by social interaction. If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  >If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely. According to the GP, by wanting more fulfilling social interactions they'll become more lonely, not less. Just because you want something doesn't mean you'll get it. If someone can only afford cheap junk food but that's all they know, the last thing you should do is show them gourmet food so they know what they're missing out on.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    I deeply and completely disagree with you. In objective outcome space you are either healthy (socially, nutritionally) or you are not. Being desirous of the good outcome is step one to having a CHANCE of having one. If you somehow numb yourself to the possibility/desire, you are guaranteed the actual bad outcome. Even in subjective space, I think people actually feel better pursuing a good outcome even if they don't succeed, vs numbing themselves and pretending everything is fine as is.
    - fluoridation 3y ago
      There's no such thing as "objective mental health". There's no test you can perform on a person to know if they're mentally well that doesn't involve asking them about it. If a person has no or little need for company, and has no or little company, how is that unhealthy? Who determines what an appropriate level of sociability is? I would have thought each person determines that for themselves, but you seem to disagree.
      - 93po 3y ago
        Humans are overwhelmingly social creatures by nature and virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life. There are exceptions of course, including people who have had traumatic experiences/abuse/PTSD/mental health issues that cause these relationships to be damaging until the underlying issue is resolved. Humans are also very, very bad at knowing what makes them happy. If a healthy person tells me they have one friend they see once a month and no other social outlets and they wouldn't want anything else, 99% of the time I'm going to assume they don't know themselves well enough to know that more relationships than that would make them happy.
        temende 3y ago
        > virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life These studies never make sense because there's no way to objectively measure happiness, especially not in a way where you can compare two people's self-reported levels of "happiness". The word happiness itself is already is an over-loaded term that everyone has their own definition of. (At best you can measure proxy outcomes like measuring health based on relationships, but there are so many confounding variables it's hard to narrow it down.)
- xyzelement 3y ago
  This is spot on and I just made a comment to the same point. It's maybe analogous to someone who has always been overweight and therefore don't perceive a problem with it because they don't have a reference point on how much better being in shape feels.
- hinkley 3y ago
  I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. At the same time if I am forced into a situation where I’m alone and without internet, I fare much better and for much longer than people think I will. Certainly multiples of how long they can manage. At the end of the day I think we confuse coping with contentment. Some people can cope endlessly, that doesn’t mean they are happy about it.
  - 93po 3y ago
    > I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. I would encourage you to challenge this belief. I'm not saying this is true of you, but I used to feel this way when I was insecure and overly worried about what others thought and felt. These days, I'm myself. I'm honest. I'm vulnerable (where appropriate). I'm also compassionate, and not being one of those "calls them hows I sees them" people. I imagine people like hearing you talk more than you realize. Sometimes they enjoy it but don't necessarily know how to respond, which is about them and not you. This is especially true if it's someone who's chosen to spend time around you and didn't just randomly meet you. I encourage people to be themselves (while being kind) and quit worrying. You'll attract the right people in life if you're authentic. You'll never attract the right people being someone else.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      Oh I’ve certainly done that when I was younger, but there are levels of distress that are hard to miss once you realize you should check in with the other person. Sometimes it’s enough to say “Xs sure are cool” without launching into a full history.
    - MrVandemar 3y ago
      Conversely, the number of people I meet who rabbit on about the most pointless stuff is considerable, and most take no hints to go away and leave me alone or even dial it back. When in doubt, check in with your victim.
nmz 3y ago
Interesting, I've always thought of myself as an introvert because I like being in social settings but am reserved on interactions. With this definition I'm possibly an extrovert.
- zem 3y ago
  the commonest distinction i've seen is that introverts get drained by being with people, and recharge by being alone, whereas extroverts get energised by being with people. it's distinct from whether you enjoy social interaction, some introverts like socialising but can only do so much of it before they need to go off and be by themselves.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    Your definition is right - extraversion / introversion is about whether you get energy alone or from being with people. Introversion doesn't imply awkwardness, rudeness etc. though people use it as an excuse often.
- tayo42 3y ago
  lately ive actually been wondering if im more extroverted then I realized, but just have social anxiety that leads to me being quiet and reserved. I mean were posting on forums, i threw a party this weekend. lol
pwpw 3y ago
> being in a situation that reminds you of your lack sometimes creates that desire, which creates that delta. > we can sometimes control the amount of desire we have by avoiding triggers that remind us. This makes me think of Instagram/Snapchat and notably the stories feature. If you are having a fine time on your own at home on a Friday night and then open someone’s story that shows them with a few other people having fun, it can create a sense of missing out and trigger loneliness, when in fact, you weren’t feeling particularly lonely right before that event.
- nojvek 3y ago
  I've deleted facebook/snapchat for 5+ years now, and objectively feel happier. Although some of that FOMO is still there not being there with family.
- totallywrong 3y ago
  It begs the question, why are you on those sites if they make you feel that way? I've only ever been on FB for like 6 months a long time ago, and I noticed this immediately. I don't need to be bombarbed with the life highlights of hundreds of people at the same time. Even if you have a great life yourself, that will give you FOMO, jealousy, and similar feelings at some point. It's human nature. Let alone if you're going through a rough time.
  - wholinator2 3y ago
    I have social groups that meet up occasionally that only exist on snapchat. I've deleted it before but end up having so little social connection that it falls below my desired amount and I get really lonely. So I install snapchat again so I can interact and get included in groups and plans and then the demon app works to exclusively show me unattainable levels of exciting social interactions and beautiful places and people until it raises my desired social interaction above what I'm getting from it and keeps it in an impossible range. It's honestly terrible. I know how bad all the stories are but it's almost impossible to stop. I say this as someone who meditates and has very strict exercise and diet and study habits. But these apps are designed and created with billions of dollars to defeat almost anyone so how could a single person possible win? If I leave, it's not enough. If I stay, it's not enough. And before you ask, the groups do not exist on texting. I've tried it and just ended up not being around again. College is like that these days.
xyzelement 3y ago
I think there's a difference between self-percieved "amount desired" and "amount REQUIRED for sanity." Eg I have a few friends who left to their own devices would never make social plans and when I invite them to a BBQ they'll stand lamely to the side BUT at the end of the day they are much happier than if they sat home yet again. I am a mild case of this as well.
- xeromal 3y ago
  I think that's roughly similar. Being around social situations without having to interact still charges the battery.
  - causality0 3y ago
    It's one reason why friend-group entertainment like podcasts or YouTube D&D campaigns are so popular.
    - falcor84 3y ago
      Could you please expand regarding podcasts - is meeting up just to listen to a podcast together a thing that people do?
      - causality0 3y ago
        No, I mean podcasts that are essentially a small group of friends shooting the breeze or talking about a specific topic. It lets you feel as if you're a member of an intimate social group but you have neither any responsibility for participation or ability to fuck it up and make people dislike you.
- CTDOCodebases 3y ago
  Just being around people could be the amount of social connection your friends desire. I think the comment you replied to is correct. Personally speaking not all social interaction is a positive contributor to one's sanity. Having the same shallow conversations over and over with different individuals while observing people express their narcissistic traits covertly within or over a group can have a corrosive effect on my sanity. A BBQ could be good but a bit intense for your friends hence their reaction. Maybe inviting them to a more intimate gathering e.g dinner with your own family or a couple of friends would allow them to engage more and allow them to have a deeper connection to others or yourself.
hutzlibu 3y ago
"but we can sometimes control the amount of desire we have by avoiding triggers that remind us" That is true, but a sad conclusion. I don't believe, that there are many people who truly want to be alone all the time. Most just rather be alone, than with mean idiots, who will hurt them again. But avoiding other people and situations to not be reminded how alone you are, will also never allow you to be in a position, where you can indeed open up and connect to the right people. This is a really magical feeling. Being connected to people who you like, where you just feel welcome and don't have the feeling to be on your guard all the time. There is a reason many people are obsessed with party and drugs as this will get them this feeling temporarily. But I want that feeling everyday and without drugs. But the daily grind makes it an exception.
- anon4242 3y ago
  > This is a really magical feeling. Being connected to people who you like, where you just feel welcome and don't have the feeling to be on your guard all the time. This. Maybe a bit weird but often for me these connections has been with total strangers while traveling when I was younger. Sometimes it would be with another tourist and sometimes with a local. It's surprising how deep it can get quickly. I think this is why I love the movie "Lost in Translation", I think it perfectly captures this emotion. But I think if you haven't had that kind of experience with strangers the movie is probably lost on you.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    I have not seen the movie, but I know that experience. I think it is, because while travelling you are not bound by social expectations and boundaries. "What if I behave weird, then everyone will know in eternity". No, you meet people and you (both) can relax, because you know you can just move on the next day and never see anyone here again. So you can let go off all that fear and anxiety .. and suddenly you can connect with ease.
tsss 3y ago
> Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero I find it funny that you use the words "lack" and "desire" exactly like Lacan, who explained why it is impossible to fill that lack.
throw0101a 3y ago
> If you’re an introvert and don’t desire social connection and have none, you’re fine. As a blanket statement, this may not be valid, as there could be 'feedback loops': > Buecker and her colleagues found that lonely people tended to be more introverted and neurotic and somewhat less agreeable and conscientious than less lonely people on average. * https://www.psypost.org/2020/01/study-finds-lonely-people-tend-to-be-introverted-and-neurotic-and-somewhat-less-agreeable-and-conscientious-55293 https://www.psypost.org/2020/01/study-finds-lonely-people-te...
bawolff 3y ago
> If you’re an introvert and don’t desire social connection and have none, you’re fine I'd just point out being an introvert does not mean you don't desire or dont have social interaction, just that it can be tiring instead of energizing. You could still very much crave social interaction as an introvert.
devsegal 3y ago
Only on HN do I expect a formalization of loneliness. I'm not complaining.
- totallywrong 3y ago
  Do we have an ISO number yet?
  - xpe 3y ago
    I did some research, and yes: ISO 35776597. Except that's the deprecated base 10 number. With so many standards now, everyone prefers base 36: ISO LATED.
- xpe 3y ago
  >> ... one definition of loneliness is the difference between the amount (and depth) of social connection desired and the amount obtained. > Only on HN do I expect a formalization of loneliness. I'm not complaining. I'm inclined to see this as a model, not a definition nor formalization. For me, the definition would be rooted in a subjective experience and would also include considerable formalization. I don't do this lightly, but I think ChatGPT 4.0's comparison is quite lucid: "... formalization is more about defining and structuring the components or rules of a system or concept, while a model is about representing that system or concept in a simpler or more understandable way." I enjoy this kind of pedantry. I don't see you complaining. :)
  - devsegal 3y ago
    I would never want to dilute HackerNews comments but on the Internet you really have no idea how you impact people. Thanks for making me smile, have a good day :)
TootsMagoon 3y ago
Great comment. Thank you

by wenc 3y ago

supriyo-biswas 3y ago

This is a great way to look at introversion/extroversion.

noisy_boy 3y ago

> Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero. And when the delta becomes negative, loneliness turns into tiredness. E.g. when an introvert doesn't desire social connection and has too much.

93po 3y ago

I would add another big variable here: people who are lonely don't always recognize they want social connection, and it's because a lot of people don't have the capability to form healthy, fulfilling relationships with other humans and therefore don't have much (if any) past history of feeling fulfilled by social interaction. If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely.

fluoridation 3y ago
>If they were to build this capability and experience fulfilling social interactions, they'd find themselves wanting more of it and therefore become less lonely. According to the GP, by wanting more fulfilling social interactions they'll become more lonely, not less. Just because you want something doesn't mean you'll get it. If someone can only afford cheap junk food but that's all they know, the last thing you should do is show them gourmet food so they know what they're missing out on.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  I deeply and completely disagree with you. In objective outcome space you are either healthy (socially, nutritionally) or you are not. Being desirous of the good outcome is step one to having a CHANCE of having one. If you somehow numb yourself to the possibility/desire, you are guaranteed the actual bad outcome. Even in subjective space, I think people actually feel better pursuing a good outcome even if they don't succeed, vs numbing themselves and pretending everything is fine as is.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    There's no such thing as "objective mental health". There's no test you can perform on a person to know if they're mentally well that doesn't involve asking them about it. If a person has no or little need for company, and has no or little company, how is that unhealthy? Who determines what an appropriate level of sociability is? I would have thought each person determines that for themselves, but you seem to disagree.
    - 93po 3y ago
      Humans are overwhelmingly social creatures by nature and virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life. There are exceptions of course, including people who have had traumatic experiences/abuse/PTSD/mental health issues that cause these relationships to be damaging until the underlying issue is resolved. Humans are also very, very bad at knowing what makes them happy. If a healthy person tells me they have one friend they see once a month and no other social outlets and they wouldn't want anything else, 99% of the time I'm going to assume they don't know themselves well enough to know that more relationships than that would make them happy.
      - temende 3y ago
        > virtually every study of happiness shows a correlation to healthy relationships in your life These studies never make sense because there's no way to objectively measure happiness, especially not in a way where you can compare two people's self-reported levels of "happiness". The word happiness itself is already is an over-loaded term that everyone has their own definition of. (At best you can measure proxy outcomes like measuring health based on relationships, but there are so many confounding variables it's hard to narrow it down.)
xyzelement 3y ago
This is spot on and I just made a comment to the same point. It's maybe analogous to someone who has always been overweight and therefore don't perceive a problem with it because they don't have a reference point on how much better being in shape feels.
hinkley 3y ago
I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. At the same time if I am forced into a situation where I’m alone and without internet, I fare much better and for much longer than people think I will. Certainly multiples of how long they can manage. At the end of the day I think we confuse coping with contentment. Some people can cope endlessly, that doesn’t mean they are happy about it.
- 93po 3y ago
  > I can tell I’ve taken it too far when I catch myself talking someone’s ear off at a gathering. They didn’t sign up for this, and here I am drinking them in like I’ve dunked my head neck deep into a pool at an oasis. Guess I was thirsty after all. I would encourage you to challenge this belief. I'm not saying this is true of you, but I used to feel this way when I was insecure and overly worried about what others thought and felt. These days, I'm myself. I'm honest. I'm vulnerable (where appropriate). I'm also compassionate, and not being one of those "calls them hows I sees them" people. I imagine people like hearing you talk more than you realize. Sometimes they enjoy it but don't necessarily know how to respond, which is about them and not you. This is especially true if it's someone who's chosen to spend time around you and didn't just randomly meet you. I encourage people to be themselves (while being kind) and quit worrying. You'll attract the right people in life if you're authentic. You'll never attract the right people being someone else.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Oh I’ve certainly done that when I was younger, but there are levels of distress that are hard to miss once you realize you should check in with the other person. Sometimes it’s enough to say “Xs sure are cool” without launching into a full history.
  - MrVandemar 3y ago
    Conversely, the number of people I meet who rabbit on about the most pointless stuff is considerable, and most take no hints to go away and leave me alone or even dial it back. When in doubt, check in with your victim.

nmz 3y ago

Interesting, I've always thought of myself as an introvert because I like being in social settings but am reserved on interactions. With this definition I'm possibly an extrovert.

zem 3y ago
the commonest distinction i've seen is that introverts get drained by being with people, and recharge by being alone, whereas extroverts get energised by being with people. it's distinct from whether you enjoy social interaction, some introverts like socialising but can only do so much of it before they need to go off and be by themselves.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  Your definition is right - extraversion / introversion is about whether you get energy alone or from being with people. Introversion doesn't imply awkwardness, rudeness etc. though people use it as an excuse often.
tayo42 3y ago
lately ive actually been wondering if im more extroverted then I realized, but just have social anxiety that leads to me being quiet and reserved. I mean were posting on forums, i threw a party this weekend. lol

pwpw 3y ago

> being in a situation that reminds you of your lack sometimes creates that desire, which creates that delta. > we can sometimes control the amount of desire we have by avoiding triggers that remind us. This makes me think of Instagram/Snapchat and notably the stories feature. If you are having a fine time on your own at home on a Friday night and then open someone’s story that shows them with a few other people having fun, it can create a sense of missing out and trigger loneliness, when in fact, you weren’t feeling particularly lonely right before that event.

nojvek 3y ago
I've deleted facebook/snapchat for 5+ years now, and objectively feel happier. Although some of that FOMO is still there not being there with family.
totallywrong 3y ago
It begs the question, why are you on those sites if they make you feel that way? I've only ever been on FB for like 6 months a long time ago, and I noticed this immediately. I don't need to be bombarbed with the life highlights of hundreds of people at the same time. Even if you have a great life yourself, that will give you FOMO, jealousy, and similar feelings at some point. It's human nature. Let alone if you're going through a rough time.
- wholinator2 3y ago
  I have social groups that meet up occasionally that only exist on snapchat. I've deleted it before but end up having so little social connection that it falls below my desired amount and I get really lonely. So I install snapchat again so I can interact and get included in groups and plans and then the demon app works to exclusively show me unattainable levels of exciting social interactions and beautiful places and people until it raises my desired social interaction above what I'm getting from it and keeps it in an impossible range. It's honestly terrible. I know how bad all the stories are but it's almost impossible to stop. I say this as someone who meditates and has very strict exercise and diet and study habits. But these apps are designed and created with billions of dollars to defeat almost anyone so how could a single person possible win? If I leave, it's not enough. If I stay, it's not enough. And before you ask, the groups do not exist on texting. I've tried it and just ended up not being around again. College is like that these days.

xyzelement 3y ago

I think there's a difference between self-percieved "amount desired" and "amount REQUIRED for sanity." Eg I have a few friends who left to their own devices would never make social plans and when I invite them to a BBQ they'll stand lamely to the side BUT at the end of the day they are much happier than if they sat home yet again. I am a mild case of this as well.

xeromal 3y ago
I think that's roughly similar. Being around social situations without having to interact still charges the battery.
- causality0 3y ago
  It's one reason why friend-group entertainment like podcasts or YouTube D&D campaigns are so popular.
  - falcor84 3y ago
    Could you please expand regarding podcasts - is meeting up just to listen to a podcast together a thing that people do?
    - causality0 3y ago
      No, I mean podcasts that are essentially a small group of friends shooting the breeze or talking about a specific topic. It lets you feel as if you're a member of an intimate social group but you have neither any responsibility for participation or ability to fuck it up and make people dislike you.
CTDOCodebases 3y ago
Just being around people could be the amount of social connection your friends desire. I think the comment you replied to is correct. Personally speaking not all social interaction is a positive contributor to one's sanity. Having the same shallow conversations over and over with different individuals while observing people express their narcissistic traits covertly within or over a group can have a corrosive effect on my sanity. A BBQ could be good but a bit intense for your friends hence their reaction. Maybe inviting them to a more intimate gathering e.g dinner with your own family or a couple of friends would allow them to engage more and allow them to have a deeper connection to others or yourself.

hutzlibu 3y ago

"but we can sometimes control the amount of desire we have by avoiding triggers that remind us" That is true, but a sad conclusion. I don't believe, that there are many people who truly want to be alone all the time. Most just rather be alone, than with mean idiots, who will hurt them again. But avoiding other people and situations to not be reminded how alone you are, will also never allow you to be in a position, where you can indeed open up and connect to the right people. This is a really magical feeling. Being connected to people who you like, where you just feel welcome and don't have the feeling to be on your guard all the time. There is a reason many people are obsessed with party and drugs as this will get them this feeling temporarily. But I want that feeling everyday and without drugs. But the daily grind makes it an exception.

anon4242 3y ago
> This is a really magical feeling. Being connected to people who you like, where you just feel welcome and don't have the feeling to be on your guard all the time. This. Maybe a bit weird but often for me these connections has been with total strangers while traveling when I was younger. Sometimes it would be with another tourist and sometimes with a local. It's surprising how deep it can get quickly. I think this is why I love the movie "Lost in Translation", I think it perfectly captures this emotion. But I think if you haven't had that kind of experience with strangers the movie is probably lost on you.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  I have not seen the movie, but I know that experience. I think it is, because while travelling you are not bound by social expectations and boundaries. "What if I behave weird, then everyone will know in eternity". No, you meet people and you (both) can relax, because you know you can just move on the next day and never see anyone here again. So you can let go off all that fear and anxiety .. and suddenly you can connect with ease.

tsss 3y ago

> Loneliness is eliminated is when that delta is small or zero I find it funny that you use the words "lack" and "desire" exactly like Lacan, who explained why it is impossible to fill that lack.

throw0101a 3y ago

> If you’re an introvert and don’t desire social connection and have none, you’re fine. As a blanket statement, this may not be valid, as there could be 'feedback loops': > Buecker and her colleagues found that lonely people tended to be more introverted and neurotic and somewhat less agreeable and conscientious than less lonely people on average. * https://www.psypost.org/2020/01/study-finds-lonely-people-tend-to-be-introverted-and-neurotic-and-somewhat-less-agreeable-and-conscientious-55293 https://www.psypost.org/2020/01/study-finds-lonely-people-te...

bawolff 3y ago

> If you’re an introvert and don’t desire social connection and have none, you’re fine I'd just point out being an introvert does not mean you don't desire or dont have social interaction, just that it can be tiring instead of energizing. You could still very much crave social interaction as an introvert.

devsegal 3y ago

Only on HN do I expect a formalization of loneliness. I'm not complaining.

totallywrong 3y ago
Do we have an ISO number yet?
- xpe 3y ago
  I did some research, and yes: ISO 35776597. Except that's the deprecated base 10 number. With so many standards now, everyone prefers base 36: ISO LATED.
xpe 3y ago
>> ... one definition of loneliness is the difference between the amount (and depth) of social connection desired and the amount obtained. > Only on HN do I expect a formalization of loneliness. I'm not complaining. I'm inclined to see this as a model, not a definition nor formalization. For me, the definition would be rooted in a subjective experience and would also include considerable formalization. I don't do this lightly, but I think ChatGPT 4.0's comparison is quite lucid: "... formalization is more about defining and structuring the components or rules of a system or concept, while a model is about representing that system or concept in a simpler or more understandable way." I enjoy this kind of pedantry. I don't see you complaining. :)
- devsegal 3y ago
  I would never want to dilute HackerNews comments but on the Internet you really have no idea how you impact people. Thanks for making me smile, have a good day :)

TootsMagoon 3y ago

Great comment. Thank you