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> Who are these people carrying around their work phone when they are not working or on call? I assume people who want to get promoted. I can't say I really c

> Who are these people carrying around their work phone when they are not working or on call? I assume people who want to get promoted. I can't say I really count myself among them; I thought the whole point of automation was that I wouldn't have to work unendingly, but that doesn't seem to be way things have worked out.

doubled112 3y ago
Carrying the work device? That’s the expectation where I work. The norm. What if something happens? Mine still gets put down and ignored when I’m done my day. People hate this. People hate that I’ve disabled my notifications too, but when I ask “do I respond in a reasonable amount of time?” the answer is always “yes”. Be the change you want to see, and all that, I guess.
- isykt 3y ago
  I’ve had this discussion before, many times, but less directly. I’ve usually pointed to the 3 or 4 people in our team who have left over the past few years due to burnout, and mention that all of us are so well paid that any one of us could afford to take years off to find something less stressful if we wanted. My point being: I need a break. You can have some of me for a long time or most of me for a short time, and the more of me you ask for now the less you’ll have later. Hiring is expensive.
pavlov 3y ago
It's starting to feel like the point of automation was to turn a small group of people into anointed 24-hour career slaves who can dream of joining the 1% if they can keep up with the machine, and leave everybody else to scrape by with unstable, meaningless and often inhuman work but tons of media to consume.
lo_zamoyski 3y ago
Except I am willing to bet these sorts of people aren't promoted at a rate that is commensurate with their expectations. This is a variation of what I might call the sycophant or nice guy paradox. The sycophant and the nice guy are desperate to be liked. They believe that if they prioritize pleasing people over the truth and what is morally right, they will be liked in return. Of course, that isn't what happens. No one respects the nice guy, and rightly so, because the nice guy is contemptible. He has essentially been shouting from the rooftops his lack of dignity and worth, his willingness to violate all true principles, and his readiness to comprise morally, for the sake of being liked (how lowly a person like that must be). The only people who are respected are the people who have staked themselves to the true and the good, not the Willy Lomans of the world. This, too, is similar to the hedonist: when pleasure becomes the purpose of one's actions and the things sought, they cease to be pleasurable. When an employer sees that they can squeeze more work out of an employee for less money, then why bother paying them more? Do good work within the bounds of the contract. In general, if the employer wants more, he has got to pay more.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > This is a variation of what I might call the sycophant or nice guy paradox. The sycophant and the nice guy are desperate to be liked. They believe that if they prioritize pleasing people over the truth and what is morally right, they will be liked in return. It's a huge stretch to conflate working longer hours with people who "prioritize pleasing people over the truth and what is morally right". > When an employer sees that they can squeeze more work out of an employee for less money, then why bother paying them more? The trick, of course, is to get a new, better job at a different company.
  - alextingle 3y ago
    > The trick, of course, is to get a new, better job at a different company. That's all very well, but if you continue to fail to set expectations at your new company, then the cycle will just continue.
    - nordsieck 3y ago
      > That's all very well, but if you continue to fail to set expectations at your new company, then the cycle will just continue. It's not about failing to set expectations. It's about what your goal is in regards to work. Some people just want to make a paycheck with minimal effort. No issue with that at all. Those people would be well served by "working their wage"/"quiet quitting". As long as they're performing to the minimum requirements, they should be able to have a nice life. For other people, they want to get promoted as quickly as possible. The most efficient way to do that is to: 1. Do great at everything 2. Take on as much extra responsibility as possible (usually without pay/title, although often companies are more willing to grant titles than pay) while maintaining a high quality of work. 3. Every 2-4 years, get a new official job at a different company based on the actual work they were doing. Is that for everyone? No. Is that for some people? Yes.
- isykt 3y ago
  Alternatively, some people enjoy their work and solving hard problems.

doubled112 3y ago

Carrying the work device? That’s the expectation where I work. The norm. What if something happens? Mine still gets put down and ignored when I’m done my day. People hate this. People hate that I’ve disabled my notifications too, but when I ask “do I respond in a reasonable amount of time?” the answer is always “yes”. Be the change you want to see, and all that, I guess.

isykt 3y ago
I’ve had this discussion before, many times, but less directly. I’ve usually pointed to the 3 or 4 people in our team who have left over the past few years due to burnout, and mention that all of us are so well paid that any one of us could afford to take years off to find something less stressful if we wanted. My point being: I need a break. You can have some of me for a long time or most of me for a short time, and the more of me you ask for now the less you’ll have later. Hiring is expensive.

pavlov 3y ago

It's starting to feel like the point of automation was to turn a small group of people into anointed 24-hour career slaves who can dream of joining the 1% if they can keep up with the machine, and leave everybody else to scrape by with unstable, meaningless and often inhuman work but tons of media to consume.

lo_zamoyski 3y ago

Except I am willing to bet these sorts of people aren't promoted at a rate that is commensurate with their expectations. This is a variation of what I might call the sycophant or nice guy paradox. The sycophant and the nice guy are desperate to be liked. They believe that if they prioritize pleasing people over the truth and what is morally right, they will be liked in return. Of course, that isn't what happens. No one respects the nice guy, and rightly so, because the nice guy is contemptible. He has essentially been shouting from the rooftops his lack of dignity and worth, his willingness to violate all true principles, and his readiness to comprise morally, for the sake of being liked (how lowly a person like that must be). The only people who are respected are the people who have staked themselves to the true and the good, not the Willy Lomans of the world. This, too, is similar to the hedonist: when pleasure becomes the purpose of one's actions and the things sought, they cease to be pleasurable. When an employer sees that they can squeeze more work out of an employee for less money, then why bother paying them more? Do good work within the bounds of the contract. In general, if the employer wants more, he has got to pay more.

nordsieck 3y ago
> This is a variation of what I might call the sycophant or nice guy paradox. The sycophant and the nice guy are desperate to be liked. They believe that if they prioritize pleasing people over the truth and what is morally right, they will be liked in return. It's a huge stretch to conflate working longer hours with people who "prioritize pleasing people over the truth and what is morally right". > When an employer sees that they can squeeze more work out of an employee for less money, then why bother paying them more? The trick, of course, is to get a new, better job at a different company.
- alextingle 3y ago
  > The trick, of course, is to get a new, better job at a different company. That's all very well, but if you continue to fail to set expectations at your new company, then the cycle will just continue.
  - nordsieck 3y ago
    > That's all very well, but if you continue to fail to set expectations at your new company, then the cycle will just continue. It's not about failing to set expectations. It's about what your goal is in regards to work. Some people just want to make a paycheck with minimal effort. No issue with that at all. Those people would be well served by "working their wage"/"quiet quitting". As long as they're performing to the minimum requirements, they should be able to have a nice life. For other people, they want to get promoted as quickly as possible. The most efficient way to do that is to: 1. Do great at everything 2. Take on as much extra responsibility as possible (usually without pay/title, although often companies are more willing to grant titles than pay) while maintaining a high quality of work. 3. Every 2-4 years, get a new official job at a different company based on the actual work they were doing. Is that for everyone? No. Is that for some people? Yes.
isykt 3y ago
Alternatively, some people enjoy their work and solving hard problems.